TT Multiscale?

[MannyMoonjava]

Hey you guys!
Do you think there will ever be a true temperament + multiscale production model?

I play in a pop group and use rg2228 which is crazy stable tuningwise. But since we use autotune and synths we would like to have the guitar perfect pitch as well!

Im gassing hard for barebones Kiesel Vader and Strandberg

I have so many guitars that if I where to buy a new one it would have to be TT!

Im 19 and dont have crazy amounts of cash, but im going to save up what we earn on our shows.
Budget 2-3k

Any ideas?

 

[Insomnia]

Eh, it's just unlikely any sort of production model will come out because there's so little demand for it, and it's really, really expensive.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Grab a Singularity, they're about $2k with TT and then you can see if they're worth pursuing further. From what I gather it's pretty polarizing, so it's best to see if you even like the TT setup with it's inherent pros and cons.

 

[MannyMoonjava]

Thanks for the replies!
Checking out the Singularity guitars now
Doest it HAVE to be red?!

This would be the perfect guitar for me (to try the whole TT thing), but I would like it morewith a Natural Finish

 

[MannyMoonjava]

And its only sevenstrings..

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Beggars can't be choosers.

 

[diagrammatiks]

Strandberg will probably do it before kiesel...but anything tt is a pretty big upcharge.

I don't think there will be a production model
Strandberg will do it for you. mayones will do one. But it won't be cheap.

 

[A-Branger]

unless you are doing a lot of complicated voiced chords, I dont really see much the point of TT to be honest. That being said, if you want it go get it. I did saw a guitar once in instagram with multiscale and TT, that thing looked like the worse nightmare for luthiers to crown frets LOL

Thats another reason why they wont be on production models. ITs too labour intensive to crown the frets. Plus the other main point that you should consideer too, (and correct me if Im wrong). These TT system only work with one tunning. So if you want to change the tunning of your guitar for any song then the system doesnt work

 

[Winspear]

Big misunderstanding around TT!
Regular guitars are perfectly capable of intonating perfect 12 EDO. It will never be perfect on the thickest strings on the highest frets, but apart from that it can and should read 0 cents on every fret just like a keyboard. If it doesn't your nut may be too high, your relief may be too much, or your bridge action may be too much. Or strings too loose going sharp during playing and fretting.

TT is actually a microtonal tuning intended to sound different to, and better than 12 EDO in common guitar keys. Worse, in uncommon keys. This is why on the FAQ on their website there is a question asking if TT guitars can still be played with a keyboard. The answer is yes as the change is quite minimal, but a non TT guitar is more in tune with a keyboard than a TT guitar. If you buy TT expecting 0 cent readings on every string, you are in for a surprise as most notes will be up to 5 cents out intentionally.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

unless you are doing a lot of complicated voiced chords, I dont really see much the point of TT to be honest. That being said, if you want it go get it. I did saw a guitar once in instagram with multiscale and TT, that thing looked like the worse nightmare for luthiers to crown frets LOL

Thats another reason why they wont be on production models. ITs too labour intensive to crown the frets. Plus the other main point that you should consideer too, (and correct me if Im wrong). These TT system only work with one tunning. So if you want to change the tunning of your guitar for any song then the system doesnt work

The frets are cast.

They're "only" a $750 upcharge on the Singularity. To put that in perspective there are legitimate luthiers who charge $400 for traditional SS refrets, granted those are highly respected guys.

Big misunderstanding around TT!
Regular guitars are perfectly capable of intonating perfect 12 EDO. It will never be perfect on the thickest strings on the highest frets, but apart from that it can and should read 0 cents on every fret just like a keyboard. If it doesn't your nut may be too high, your relief may be too much, or your bridge action may be too much. Or strings too loose going sharp during playing and fretting.

TT is actually a microtonal tuning intended to sound different to, and better than 12 EDO in common guitar keys. Worse, in uncommon keys. This is why on the FAQ on their website there is a question asking if TT guitars can still be played with a keyboard. The answer is yes as the change is quite minimal, but a non TT guitar is more in tune with a keyboard than a TT guitar. If you buy TT expecting 0 cent readings on every string, you are in for a surprise as most notes will be up to 5 cents out intentionally.

It's basically "sweetened" tunings like the Buzz Feiten system.

 

[Winspear]

Yeah, you want your minor thirds sharpened around 15 cents and your major thirds flattened around 15 cents. This is quite a lot so TT only does about 3-5 cents in the common keys else the uncommon keys would get destroyed. Improves those keys very slightly, I'll reserve judgement on if it's worth it until I try one but I could barely hear a difference on a synth, and I find my ears very sensitive to wanting that 15 cent adjustment. But yes, your keyboardist is suffering the exact same issues so if you are worried about being in tune with him, TT is not going to fix that! If he sounds better to you than your guitar, then it's because your guitar is not reproducing 12EDO correctly, not because you need TT.

How bad are your intonation problems and where? Is your string tension ok? Perhaps an Evertune is more what you are after for note stability during playing?

 

[Lorcan Ward]

TT frets are only done in Sweden right? That would mean the necks would have to be shipped to Sweden or the made there which is something Kiesel would not be able to do, imagine the up charge.

I'm not sure how difficult they are to crown but someone tried on this Caparison and gave up:

I have a compensated nut on my multiscale Daemoness which works great but like Tom said you will have changes across the board. So while most frets are better there will be some frets that were dead on are now pushed a little out.

 

[Masoo2]

Prototypes of the 8 string Singularity models were given to Per not too long ago, blue swirl finish, Lundgren pickups, AND TT frets.

 

[A-Branger]

seriously check this pic https://www.instagram.com/p/BSRFhedj05K/

thats nightmare fuel for any luthier lol, just imagine having to level and crown those frets, nope

And like Max mentioned before that I forgot, these are cast made frets. For the price you are paying and the gains, trow that money into a SS fret equip guitar

 

[dpm]

I've spent a little time playing on a TT guitar. As already mentioned it makes some keys slightly better, others slightly worse (a few chords I tried were pretty bad to my ear), and fret work a huge pain in the butt. Personally I don't see the point unless it's done with absolutely zero fret movement over time and no wear.

 

[Dredg]

I asked my other guitarist what he thought about them, and as soon as he told me he would never use TT, it ended the discussion. He's also my roommate, so we're pretty attached at the hip without complaint.

 

[ixlramp]

What Winspear states is correct, we both understand the maths of microtonal music theory so actually understand what TT is about (unlike some musicians who actually use it).
The 'well temperament' (as J.S.Bach and others of that time used) systems TT offer are deliberately out of tune with 12ET to be closer in a few keys to 'just intonation'. With a good setup a normal guitar can get close to perfect 12ET but of course never exact because there is always an inevitable slight pitch variation around the exact central frequency.

It is possible that TT also do a more subtle system that is designed to get closer to perfect 12ET, however it seems not worth it as it then locks you into one relative tuning and one set of gauges. It is also an overkill solution when good setup and maybe a compensated nut can be just as good.

Don't waste huge amounts of your money. An Evertune bridge is more what you want as that is more of an 'autotune ' type thing. But the first thing to do is to learn and become very perfectionist and anal about setup, this is also free, all the information is there on the internet.

Remember never use the 'compare 2nd harmonic to 12th fret' method to set intonation, it's only a rough and imprecise method for when you don't have a tuner. Use a tuner and play every fret and adjust to minimise the errors.

Unfortunately there s a lot if hype about it from people who don't understand it, all the 'well temperament' system does is make *only* major/minor chords slightly more harmonic in *only* a few white note keys. So some musicians who are not very adventurous try one and play a few major/minor chords in white note keys and notice a slight improvement in harmony.

The TT site used to be more technical and informative, but it has been dumbed down a lot recently, you have to search around to discover that every fret is offset from 12ET by a few cents. This is suspiciously like avoiding the technicalities to preserve the common myth that it makes 'everything in tune'. But i guess is also because TT is becoming more well-known and mainstream.

 

[Winspear]

What Winspear states is correct, we both understand the maths of microtonal music theory so actually understand what TT is about (unlike some musicians who actually use it).
The 'well temperament' (as J.S.Bach and others of that time used) systems TT offer are deliberately out of tune with 12ET to be closer in a few keys to 'just intonation'. With a good setup a normal guitar can get close to perfect 12ET but of course never exact because there is always an inevitable slight pitch variation around the exact central frequency.

It is possible that TT also do a more subtle system that is designed to get closer to perfect 12ET, however it seems not worth it as it then locks you into one relative tuning and one set of gauges. It is also an overkill solution when good setup and maybe a compensated nut can be just as good.

Don't waste huge amounts of your money. An Evertune bridge is more what you want as that is more of an 'autotune ' type thing. But the first thing to do is to learn and become very perfectionist and anal about setup, this is also free, all the information is there on the internet.

Remember never use the 'compare 2nd harmonic to 12th fret' method to set intonation, it's only a rough and imprecise method for when you don't have a tuner. Use a tuner and play every fret and adjust to minimise the errors.

Unfortunately there s a lot if hype about it from people who don't understand it, all the 'well temperament' system does is make *only* major/minor chords slightly more harmonic in *only* a few white note keys. So some musicians who are not very adventurous try one and play a few major/minor chords in white note keys and notice a slight improvement in harmony.

The TT site used to be more technical and informative, but it has been dumbed down a lot recently, you have to search around to discover that every fret is offset from 12ET by a few cents. This is suspiciously like avoiding the technicalities to preserve the common myth that it makes 'everything in tune'. But i guess is also because TT is becoming more well-known and mainstream.

I understand the marketing, and the misinformation spread by artists and users. But it is a bit frustrating and very misleading haha. It seems the vast majority of people are interested in it to 'fix their intonation', and you never know whether they are just having 12EDO intonation setup issues or are actually dissatisfied with perfectly set up 12EDO (pianos, synths too etc).
Something I am curious about is how far off people are usually finding their intonation in various areas. Like you said about the 12th fret method being rough and imprecise and guitars never getting it exact. Certainly they are never exact but I've only ever used the 12th fret method and find it results in all the other frets being spot on if I fret carefully too. I do wonder if it's nut height causing the problem for a lot of people. I do run it as low as I can and very low relief too.
I'd love to hear and see a proper comparison and review from somebody knowledgeable, because all I can grasp from most of the youtube videos out there at the moment seems to be a comparison to a poorly setup guitar.

 

[A-Branger]

Like you said about the 12th fret method being rough and imprecise and guitars never getting it exact. Certainly they are never exact but I've only ever used the 12th fret method and find it results in all the other frets being spot on if I fret carefully too. I do wonder if it's nut height causing the problem for a lot of people.

well its hard to believe but a lot of people wont intonate their guitars. I ve been playing bass since I was 15yrs old, and guitar since roughly 24. First time I took any of my instruments to a luthier was when I was 31. and although I tried couple of times to "fix the intonation" in the past, the first time I did it the right way and did it precisely was last year at 32 lol.

A lot of people are like me, they dont know, they dont care. THey are happy with the guitar as they shipped out. MAybe if they go too extreme in tunnings they might fix it. Also I had the problem in the past to try to fix the intonation doing the harmonic in the 12th (or other)vs the fretted note. Which resulted in a wrong note and made me max out my sadles while still being off. If hte 12th fretted was out, the harmonic would be too, that was my problem. The only way to fix intonation is to play the open string vs the 12th fretted note, once happy check all the other fretted notes.

 

[bostjan]

I think that there are more than a few forum users here who can think in microtonality.

To say a tuning is microtonal or not is a bit misleading, since, by rights, 12-EDO conventional tuning is microtonal.

Conventional tuning on a guitar or keyboard is what I refer to as 12-EDO. It perfectly intonates the octave, and then divides everything else into 12 equal pieces. Since every interval is equal relative to every other interval, you can play in any key and it will sound equally in/out of tune.

Why would it sound out of tune? Well, even though octaves are perfectly in tune, fifths (and conversely, fourths) are not, nor are thirds, nor sevenths, etc. etc., so every chord that is anything more complex than root and octave is going to sound slightly out of tune, no matter what you do.

But, unfortunately, there is not a damn thing anyone can do about it.

Enter True Temperament, Buzz Feiten, Fretwave, etc.: These tunings shift some notes around a little for the purpose of improving chord voicings. The push/pull, though is always in effect. If you improve one chord, another chord will sound more sour as a result.

The thing I love about tunings like this, is that they add some character. Take a look at Helmholtz's book On the Sensations of Tone, where he goes into incredible depth on how different keys sound. This was not some pseudoscience as it might appear on the surface - at the time, 12-EDO was not the standard tuning for keyboard instruments, Well Temperament was. And that was quite similar to TT. So, some keys will sound darker and others brighter. It's a cool thing to happen, that adds a little personality to your composition when it comes to selecting a key.

Interestingly, steel guitar (a.la. Robert Randolf) is tuned to a Nashville Well Temperament.

To bring up playing with other instruments: keep in mind that other instruments - harmonica, flute, clarinet, saxophone, trumpet, etc., are not intonated to play in 12-EDO. Bands with sax and guitar have a tough time sounding great with sax and guitar in unison, but guitar and keyboard sound great together, because they are tuned the same. Trumpet and trombone sound great together. Different kinds of sax sound great together. Flute and clarinet sound great together... violin can be played to fit with pretty much anything. And, if you fudge notes that aren't perfectly in tune to sound okay with a chorus-y effect when played together detuned, then anything will work in a pinch.

TL;DR - TT is great, but no better, overall, than 12-EDO. There's a lot of weird misinformation flying around. Do your homework.