Two quick theory questions

[Zeetwig]

Two quick questions that I've never really found answers to:

When you hear players sweep different chords and tap different chords, do they tap and sweep the same chord as the backing track is playing? Or can you sweep/tap an X chord over a Y chord (not sweep/tap X chord over X chord, i.e. the same chord)?

When playing over a backing track with a chord progression, can you change scale to fit the chord? If you are playing in G minor and the chord progression is Gm - D# - Dm - A# - Am - repeat you can just solo in G minor over it all, but can you change scale at each chord (i.e. play something like a G minor scale over Gm, a D# major scale over D# and so on, or in some other way play some other scale than G minor over the chords, and still make it sound like the song is in G minor)?

The two questions are sort of related so one single answer is ok too

Thanks

 

[Maniacal]

I would answer this, but you are better of just waiting for "The Chosen One"

 

[SirMyghin]

Two quick questions that I've never really found answers to:

When you hear players sweep different chords and tap different chords, do they tap and sweep the same chord as the backing track is playing? Or can you sweep/tap an X chord over a Y chord (not sweep/tap X chord over X chord, i.e. the same chord)?

Not the chosen on, but I'll help you out. I would say typically, it is the same chord as the backing, or an embellishment of that chord. That is not to say it has to be though, but you have to be choosy then to get the desired sound. If the chord you choose is too close to the chord in the backing (say an F# against an A), you are more likely to sound like you are playing A6 arps over A, as A will be pretty strong in the listeners ear. B against A though, will sound pretty 'out', but with proper voicing might sound like some cool embellishment.

The other side here is if the backing track is rather static (see not a progression, but something more of a groove), all your movement will come from what chords you choose to play over it, and this may give you a lot more freedom. Same goes for progressions containing only power chords, as the modality (major/minor) can be altered to your mood seeing as there are no 3rds present (make sure you watch what other instruments are doing, just to make sure of this, aka what if the bass player is playing more than the root, well then you kill him and find a new one of course).

When playing over a backing track with a chord progression, can you change scale to fit the chord? If you are playing in G minor and the chord progression is Gm - D# - Dm - A# - Am - repeat you can just solo in G minor over it all, but can you change scale at each chord (i.e. play something like a G minor scale over Gm, a D# major scale over D# and so on, or in some other way play some other scale than G minor over the chords, and still make it sound like the song is in G minor)?

When playing over a chord progression, you can either play diatonically (in one key) or relative to the chord, either is acceptable. Thing is playing diatonically is going to sound like shit over a non-functional (so not standard) chord progression. The progression you have written is definitely not functional.

G minor is
i) Gm
ii dim) Adim
III) Bb
iv) Cm
v) Dm ( V D works too but is strictly speaking harmonic minor which would have F# then)
VI) Eb
VII) F

D# is probably Eb (context is everything) A# is Bb (what is with guitarists and only using sharps anyway?), but A, that chord is not in the key.

Gm to Eb is a mediant relationship, meaning they are separated by a 3rd, this continues for your entire progression, until we hit A. Then it pretty much goes nowhere. This relationship takes advantage of the common tones between chords, so doesn't have as much movement (but is a cool sound). Look at Gm (G Bb D) and Eb (Eb G Bb) and you can see there are 2 common tones.

As far as soloing over this diatonically, or based on chord tones, it will depend on what you are trying to achieve. If you play Gm over Gm, then D# major or D#, you might have conflicting moods, but you could make it flow seemlessly bar to bar. This is going to depend how you 'approach' the desired notes that are 'out' from the 'home' (or diatonic) key. It can be done but for this progression, I can't say I would recommend it unless you have a firm grasp of the ideas and don't think about it in such blocky things as scales.

Personally, I tend to think in chord tones. So your progression looks like this in its simplest form(remember major chords = 1 3 5 and minor chords 1 b3 5)

G Bb D
Eb G Bb
D F A
Bb D F
A C E

Those are the outlines of the chords being played, a good starting point for hitting 'land marks' and even how you plan to voice your chords (barre chords = lame as shit)

G Bb D (root position)
G Bb Eb (1st inversion which means 3rd in the base)
F A D (root position)
D F Bb (1st inversion)
C E A (1st inversion)

Notice what I have done here, using chord inversion (poorly in this case, I don't particularly like it), I have made the notes move pretty close to one direction only, to give it some 'flow' if you will. Chords voiced 1-3-5 are known as root position, as the root is the lowest note in the chord. If we put the 3rd in the base, we get 1st inversion, 5th in the base 2nd inversion and the 7th in the base is 3rd inversion (but I am not going to worry about embellishments here.)

How does this pertain to your solo now, you may ask? Even if your chords are not lead smoothly, or at all, you can still utilize and arrangement like that for your leads to get them a nice, connected phrase. Think of chord tones are your land marks, notes to stress during your playing. If you can stress the chord tones really well, you can get away with murder when you are playing 'out' or away from the other expected, or 'home key' notes.

For this progression you need to watch the E on your final chord, that is the only out note of the whole deal. It is a 3rd away from G though, so you could have some fun with it I'd bet.



The problem here is, I have assumed you know chord construction to some extent, if you do not, maybe we can rectify that (and teach you some).

 

[Zeetwig]

Thanks for the answer
Just to answer some of the questions and clarify some things:

If the chord you choose is too close to the chord in the backing (say an F# against an A), you are more likely to sound like you are playing A6 arps over A, as A will be pretty strong in the listeners ear.

Would you mind explaining why? And how do I know which chords works over which?

The progression you have written is definitely not functional.

I don't know much about which chords go well with others, nor what chords that fit into a scale (I know a little but I round that off to "I know nothing" ). So I basically do it by ear. What sounds good, I keep. The particular progression I mentioned is a barre chord progression (barre chords = maybe a bit lame but useful for those that don't know all the inversions of all chords and where to find the same chord in multiple places over the neck ) that begins on the 7th fret lowest string (tuned to C, so that makes it a G) with a minor shape (so its Gm), goes to the 3rd (D#), 2nd (Dm), 10th (A#), 9th (Am), and then back to Gm. It sounds good to me, and I did a solo over it using a combination of G pentatonic, G blues and G minor, and it sounded good to me ^^

What is with guitarists and only using sharps anyway?

My tuner shows me notes as either normal or sharp, never flat, so I guess I just got used to thinking in sharps

The problem here is, I have assumed you know chord construction to some extent, if you do not, maybe we can rectify that (and teach you some).

I know a little but I haven't really gotten a proper education I guess, so please, illuminate me

 

[SirMyghin]

Thanks for the answer
Just to answer some of the questions and clarify some things:

If the chord you choose is too close to the chord in the backing (say an F# against an A), you are more likely to sound like you are playing A6 arps over A, as A will be pretty strong in the listeners ear.

Would you mind explaining why? And how do I know which chords works over which?

This is solely because I know how to construct chords. I'll get to that later.

The progression you have written is definitely not functional.

I don't know much about which chords go well with others, nor what chords that fit into a scale (I know a little but I round that off to "I know nothing" ). So I basically do it by ear. What sounds good, I keep. The particular progression I mentioned is a barre chord progression (barre chords = maybe a bit lame but useful for those that don't know all the inversions of all chords and where to find the same chord in multiple places over the neck ) that begins on the 7th fret lowest string (tuned to C, so that makes it a G) with a minor shape (so its Gm), goes to the 3rd (D#), 2nd (Dm), 10th (A#), 9th (Am), and then back to Gm. It sounds good to me, and I did a solo over it using a combination of G pentatonic, G blues and G minor, and it sounded good to me ^^

A non-functional progression isn't a problem, and can sound good, it just isn't functional (functional chord progressions are a thing of their own, very specific).

What is with guitarists and only using sharps anyway?

My tuner shows me notes as either normal or sharp, never flat, so I guess I just got used to thinking in sharps

No better time than now to start fixing it, G minor is the relative minor to Bb major , no sharps allowed.

The problem here is, I have assumed you know chord construction to some extent, if you do not, maybe we can rectify that (and teach you some).

I know a little but I haven't really gotten a proper education I guess, so please, illuminate me

This is going to be a quick version, using the C major scale.

What is a major scale, it is the foundation of western music for one, and is made of up notes in tones (T - 2 frets) and semitones ( S 1 fret) it is T-T-S-T-T-T-S

So in C:

 C--D--E--F--G--A--B--C
 1--2--3--4--5--6--7

The numbers below are the scale degrees
Chords are made by harmonizing the scale in 3rds which gives, I will overlay the scale in thirds to illustrate that.

 C--D--E--F--G--A--B--C
 E--F--G--A--B--C--D--E
 G--A--B--C--D--E--F--G

Each of those are the notes in your major or minor chords. A major chord is a major third, followed by a minor third, so C major is constructed from degrees 1, 3 and 5 of the major scale.

A minor chord is a minor third followed by a major third. So is notated as 1 b3 5, C minor would be C Eb G.

A diminished chord is 2 minor 3rds, C Eb Gb (or 1 b3 b5, generally)

The third type of triad is a augment triad, which is 2 major thirds (1 3 #5) or C E G#, but is not present with the major scale.


If we put another stack of 3rds on that we start getting into extended chords, or embellishments, the 7th chords

 C--D--E--F--G--A--B--C
 E--F--G--A--B--C--D--E
 G--A--B--C--D--E--F--G 
 B--C--D--E--F--G--A--B

C E G B is a M7 chord (major 7th chord) as it has the major 7th, or leading tone of C (B). Leading tone just means it wants to push to the tonic. Do a quick run in C major and stop on the B, you'll feel the pull to C.

D F A C is a m7 chord, as it is a minor chord (1 b3 5) with a 7th a tone from the root.

The special chord here is G7, (1 3 5 b7), called the dominant 7th, which is relative to the dominant (5th scale degree). This chord is special as 3 b7 is a tritone, and really wants to resolve to the C chord.


That is as far as I will go for now, and is probably too far. If you can't follow the triad construction, go back and learn intervals.

 

[Zeetwig]

Ok I should probably not have rounded "a little" off down to "nothing", cause this is well-known territory Sorry for being unclear


Edit: I should probably mention that I have a brother that is currently attending a music school, intending to become a jazz musician (he's a monster at theory IMO :S )

 

[SirMyghin]

Well if you know how to construct chords, you should be able to guess which chords would work well together, and find the overlaps. If there is a bunch of overlap, chances are you won't hear both chords, but an embellishment of the more prominent one.

You went and played the opposite of what we see around here, usually 'I know some theory' means 'I know some scale shapes' , so I guess it figures someone who says they know no theory knows something valuable.

 

[Grimbold]

always nice to see someone with theory knowledge come to the forum

 

[TheDepthsWillRise]

Have to say thanks to SirMyghin! I'm a theory n00b, and your explanation was very clear, and very helpful. http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/members/sirmyghin.html

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

There's not a whole lot left for me to say. What I hear is typically along the lines of following the harmony (Gm chord = Gm arpeggio), or something that involves multiple harmonies being stated above what is an comparatively static background. Since you have complete chords whenever you execute an arpeggio, you have more control over the harmony than would otherwise be the case. This means that for this progression...

Gm E♭ Dm B♭ Am

... you could easily superimpose two "chords" over one "chord". It's a long explanation for why I put that word in quotes, but suffice it to say that you ear is going to follow the moving line: if you have the rhythm guitar and bass play those chords on the downbeat, don't iterate them too much (or at least only play roots), and have the lead guitar input two harmonic entries, you can easily end up with some very elaborated harmony. Here's a rather Baroque interpretation of that progression:

Arpeggio on top, bass note on bottom.

Gm-B♭7|E♭-A7|Dm-F7|B♭-E7|Am-E♭7(♭5)|D7
G-----|E♭---|D----|B♭---|A--------|D

Added the D7 at the end to make it more stylistic. Our ear will forget the chord on the downbeat of the measure if you give it ample reason to attach to the new harmony. All I've done here is add a secondary dominant to each measure to tonicize the upcoming chord. Except for the E♭7(♭5); that's a predominant function. Similar, but different.

 

[Zeetwig]

Well if you know how to construct chords, you should be able to guess which chords would work well together, and find the overlaps. If there is a bunch of overlap, chances are you won't hear both chords, but an embellishment of the more prominent one.

You went and played the opposite of what we see around here, usually 'I know some theory' means 'I know some scale shapes' , so I guess it figures someone who says they know no theory knows something valuable.

Uhm well, actually I do not? How do you see which chords that fit over each other? What are you supposed to look for?

I think the reason why I rounded "a little" down to "nothing" is because although I know some theory (sort of) I do not know how to use or apply it very well :S Also, I'm Swedish Ever heard of "jantelagen"? xD




Found this today


Really helpful! Now I finally know what people mean when they say that they can play all/different modes in the same key.