Ukraine (sorry?)

[Necris]

Haha, you really think they care about your corruption levels? Dude, wake up. EU just need to expand its borders, simple geopolitics. Now think about whos really sticking his nose into your business.

As opposed to the Russian military, which has entered Crimea purely in the interest of assisting the Ukranian People, right?

 

[oversteve]

Found one more more obvious bullshit and gues what it's Russian news again

They are telling it's the confrontation in Crimea in Simferopol on February 27 and showing the videos of confrontation in Kyiv from some time ago, the ones who understand Russian language can check it starting from 1:45

 

[Jakke]

As opposed to the Russian military, which has entered Crimea purely in the interest of assisting the Ukranian People, right?

The Russians in Chrimea

 

[Andrew Romanov]

They don't care about lowering the corruption levels but they are requesting some changes that will eventually lead to it, and of course I understand it will take some time

Please tell me where did you see people with the Nazi symbolic? You mean the nationalists' red and black flag and the portrat of Stepan Bandera who was kept from 1941 till the end of 44 in concentration camp? Should I remind you about general Vlasov then? What about Stalin and Lenin? And the commies party? As I said there are some radicaly oriented people here and there, but they are not numerous and they in most keep silent, same goes for Russia - you've got tonns of skinheads as well.

So it's just a speculation to feed the trolls who are ready to eat and swallow it all.

It might sound strange but sofar the bigest help we've got is from Putin himself, first when he refused to support Yanukovich when he was still here being a president and now - nothing unites people like a common enemy.

Yes, about that Stepan Bandera who decided to betray Soviet Union and fight on the side of Hitler. Ahhh, I see why you support Maidan, you probably like him. And about nazis - I saw people from the Right sector with SS logos on their shields on BBC (link is somewhere in this thread). BBC, not our 'bullshit media'. And the Right sector is the main force behind violence in Kiev.

 

[Andrew Romanov]

The Russians in Chrimea

Exactly. The Russian people whos interests haven't been taken into account during this "revolution". The majority of people in eastern regions who want to be friends with us.
Anyways, Kiev is burning, Crimea is on its way to become totally independent from you and probably the rest of the east will join it. You will pay debts for next 10 years to EU....
If you want to live like that - its your choice. Others just don't.

 

[groverj3]

There's no war like a good old fashioned cold war.

 

[groverj3]

Seriously though, I fail to see what Russia has to gain by doing any of this invasion business other than the land itself. Other than a significant ethnic Russian population in the area, why would they even care? Trying to re-live the "glory days" of the USSR?

Any other reasoning put forth I'm inclined to think is just posturing and BS to rationalize it.

I mean, if Crimea was already going to vote on joining the Russian Federation I would think that this reeks of Russia not believing that the popular support was actually there and wanted to pre-empt this while there was some chaos in Ukraine.

Then again, that's me looking at this situation with my "American" viewpoint.

 

[marshallH]

Russia's whole "we sent troops a them but we also didn't so it wasn't a war" thing reminds me of the kid who suddenly "isn't playing anymore" when something he doesn't like happens in a game. It's literally like they are going "it doesn't count we didn't shake on it"

Way too much power in an unstable mind.

 

[Andrew Romanov]

Seriously though, I fail to see what Russia has to gain by doing any of this invasion business other than the land itself. Other than a significant ethnic Russian population in the area, why would they even care? Trying to re-live the "glory days" of the USSR?

Any other reasoning put forth I'm inclined to think is just posturing and BS to rationalize it.

I mean, if Crimea was already going to vote on joining the Russian Federation I would think that this reeks of Russia not believing that the popular support was actually there and wanted to pre-empt this while there was some chaos in Ukraine.

Then again, that's me looking at this situation with my "American" viewpoint.

Some good points here.
First of all, its extremely unlikely that Russia will make any invasion. Its probably a smart move by Putin to keep those radical morons off Crimea so people can make a referendum without mass killings as it happened in Kiev. Nobody wants war. Secondly, Crimea isn't joining the Federation. It becomes an independent formation on the territory of Ukraine. Its own constitution, government, etc. And that pisses off the new Ukrainians. As for our ethnic population - they've officially asked us to come and help them.
If we speak about Russia's territory interests - it is obviously access to the Black Sea and fleet there.

 

[oversteve]

Yes, about that Stepan Bandera who decided to betray Soviet Union and fight on the side of Hitler. Ahhh, I see why you support Maidan, you probably like him. And about nazis - I saw people from the Right sector with SS logos on their shields on BBC (link is somewhere in this thread). BBC, not our 'bullshit media'. And the Right sector is the main force behind violence in Kiev.

First of all you'd better try to learn history a little instead of claiming some silly stuff, at least try to read wiki, then you'll see that Bandera was held prisoner in concentartion camp during the whole period of WW2 so he physicaly couldn't join the forces of Nazi. He oposed Soviet Union later cause of all that crazy stuff happening in the country. However somehow Russians tend to Forget about general Vlasov who joined the forces with the SS, did you ever read about who he is? What about the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact?

How can I like a man being a man? I can support his views but I'm not since I'm more of liberal views

About people with the SS logos - I wrote it at least 3 times here - some % of radicals is present everywhere, it doesn't mean that all these people on Maidan were radicals and that that force was dominant, you can check the list of the people who died during confrontation - they are from all regions, there are people from East, from West and even from South.

But as I understand you don't intend to, it's easier to believe what the TV is telling and to justyfy some unaproved violence.

So if you don't know it for sure please keep from claiming people bad without any proof.

 

[Andrew Romanov]

But as I understand you don't intend to, it's easier to believe what the TV is telling and to justyfy some unaproved violence.
So if you don't know it for sure please keep from claiming people bad without any proof.

I know history well enough to understand who is Bandera. And if you support him - we got nothing in common. Tell about unapproved violence to the people who died there (both sides). There were no Russian forces there at that time, no one to blame.

 

[groverj3]

With my post above I was implying that Russia is overstepping its authority.

This is 2014, not 1960. Let Ukraine handle Ukrainian business. Let's not play Cold War Part Deux: Russia vs EU/US. Nobody wants that, and it's just going to destabilize many tenuous situations around the globe.

 

[oversteve]

Seriously though, I fail to see what Russia has to gain by doing any of this invasion business other than the land itself. Other than a significant ethnic Russian population in the area, why would they even care? Trying to re-live the "glory days" of the USSR?

Any other reasoning put forth I'm inclined to think is just posturing and BS to rationalize it.

I mean, if Crimea was already going to vote on joining the Russian Federation I would think that this reeks of Russia not believing that the popular support was actually there and wanted to pre-empt this while there was some chaos in Ukraine.

Then again, that's me looking at this situation with my "American" viewpoint.

Exactly, many famous politogist even from Russia itself claim that Putin has some great Imperial ambition. I won't claim anything since I'm not a politologist myself but there are many obvious facts that our dismissed president tried to lay under the Russian Federation. Can you imagine the ministers of government not being residents of Ukraine? We had it here. Can you imagine the generals commanding the forces not being residents of Ukraine? We had it here as well.

Again many claim that Putin is really afraid of what happened in Kyiv and same revolution happening in Russian Federation since our countries have lots in common, same form of dictatorship. For example during the UN Security Council meeting the day before yesterday the representative of Russia claimed that they will suspend the invasion if our former president Yanukovich will return being a president. Plain and simple

Here's the video, Andrew please check it
Виталий Чуркин - выступление в Совбезе ООН 02.03.2014 - YouTube

As to the Crimea there's a long story to tell.
According to the social polls near 35-40 % of people leaving in Crimea support that idea of joining Russian Federation, that is a large number indeed however it is not even being a half. They are going to take the referendum with the Crimea full of Russian forces everywhere wearing guns and even not letting the Ukrainian journalists pass the border - do you really believe that it can be transparrent and without any pressure on the population that way?

I won't go deep into history but roughly it is obvious why it was made the part of Ukraine during USSR period - the peninsula is surrounded by water from all sides and is connected to Ukraine in the North, 80% of non salty water is supplied to Crimea from the mainland, there are no major power plants in here the electricity is supplied from the mainland, nowadays people gain most part of income from the summer period when people from Ukraine and Russia come here mainly by train or cars for recreation. Now if it's separated from Ukraine the majority of common people will suffer because of it, however it's suitable for Putin since he'll be able to keep the Russian fleet in here, and if Ukraine stays the way it is now with the Crimea as a part of it there is a high probability the treaty will be denounced and the fleet will be removed.

Thereare many other points of view but they seem more like conspiracy theories, at least at the moment, these two are obvious though.

As to why that many pople support the idea of joining Russia - majority of population in Crimea are Russian speaking, Id' say like 90% or so. The language question was highly exploited by some parties during the whole 23 year period of Ukraine independence, by the party of regions and communists especialy, when you check the current demonstrations in Crymea - people telling they are waiting for the West-Ukrainian Nazis to come and make everyone speak Ukrainian, there will be criminal responsibility for using Russian language and stuff, however of course noone is going to meet these crazy expectations there are no Naziez coming here. Of course there are many people who do not intend to vouch for joining Russia, some part of them is passive and won't participate in any demonstrations, some part are simply afraid of "unidentified" people in masks with machineguns going freely throughout the cities.

That is the current state in Ukraine in short.

 

[oversteve]

With my post above I was implying that Russia is overstepping its authority.

This is 2014, not 1960. Let Ukraine handle Ukrainian business. Let's not play Cold War Part Deux: Russia vs EU/US. Nobody wants that, and it's just going to destabilize many tenuous situations around the globe.

Exactly, that is what we are hoping for.

 

[oversteve]

I know history well enough to understand who is Bandera. And if you support him - we got nothing in common. Tell about unapproved violence to the people who died there (both sides). There were no Russian forces there at that time, no one to blame.

Ok, I won't try to persuade you, you've got your own point of view, people here can check it for themselves and see who's right or wrong.

 

[Andrew Romanov]

I won't claim anything since I'm not a politologist myself but there are many obvious facts that our dismissed president tried to lay under the Russian Federation. Can you imagine the ministers of government not being residents of Ukraine? We had it here. Can you imagine the generals commanding the forces not being residents of Ukraine? We had it here as well.

For example during the UN Security Council meeting the day before yesterday the representative of Russia claimed that they will suspend the invasion if our former president Yanukovich will return being a president. Plain and simple

Here's the video, Andrew please check it
Виталий Чуркин - выступление в Совбезе ООН 02.03.2014 - YouTube

Yanukovich tried to lay under both parties at the same time. That's why you are where you are.
Don't forget the fact that Russia tries to return him and after that make the legitimate elections possible. With people actually voting. Because he's still your president after all. Yanukovich has signed that agreement. We don't need that pussy here too.
And btw, the new government tried to forbid the Russian langage.

 

[oversteve]

The're one more vivid example



протесты против войны Россия: Крыму мир! Вова нам не командир!, - россияне вышли на акции протеста против агрессии РФ в Крыму. ФОТОрепортаÐ

There were some demonstrations held in Moscow and Saint-Petersburg against war that were suppresed by the local police. Kremlin is hurting their own people inside Russia and claims it will protect Russian people living in other country? Thx but we'd rather pass it.

 

[oversteve]

And btw, the new government tried to forbid the Russian langage.

Again, misinformation, the new government didn't forbid the language itself, the law regulating regional languages was suspended because of having many issues and the new law is being worked on at the moment.

The point of that law was that if some region had 10% of population speaking some language they are able to fill the official papers in that language. Andrew, does anyone allowed to fill in the official papers in Ukrainian language in Russia since there are tonns of Ukrainians living and working in Russian Federation? The asnwer is no. Same goes for majority of countries, people are allowed to speak many languages but the official papers should be filled using the state language.

At the moment the active law regulating language use is this one from USSR times, set up in 1989, you can check it here
http://www.sdpuo.com/rus/faction/laws/laws-lang/
There is no word of suppresing the regional languages in it

I won't argue that the decision to suspend that law is not timely, but again in most it is just one of speculations to justify the invasion

 

[oversteve]

We don't need that pussy here too.

We'll gladly accept him and excort him to Gaaga court. Our government even made an official request however your governmend isn't going to hand him over to us

 

[oversteve]

The "non-legitimate Nazi" government assigned the head of the Ukrainian Jewish comunity as a governor of one of the states. Where were they looking, those "Nazies"?

I'm looking forward to see how the Russian media will misinterpret it