Unpopular opinions on gear

[ExMachina]

That's because the preamps are being designed around the speakers, though. I've seen some guys replace their IRs with an EQ to relative good results, so why not just have a preamp that sounds good through a "good" speaker system in the first place?

Probably because you would throw on IR on it before it went to the good speaker system anyways. Basically a modeler and PA solution.

People are just more comfortable playing with guitar cabs.

 

[gunch]

BOOST AND SCOOP

 

[TedEH]

I've seen some guys replace their IRs with an EQ to relative good results, so why not just have a preamp that sounds good through a "good" speaker system in the first place?

Two reasons:
One is that an IR is not a speaker. What works in the box isn't guaranteed to work in other circumstances.
Second reason is that it doesn't make sense in the market - both because creating a truly/universally "good" speaker is an engineering challenge that takes time and money, but also because if every cab sounds the same then you've got nothing to sell people on. The clout of Mesa+Marshall+Orange etc cabs would all dissolve into the mess that is hifi speaker marketing.

But again, just like the modelling argument, why go to all the trouble to make a perfect speaker, just to jam an IR on it to make it sound just like the imperfect speaker you started with? Especially when the imperfect starting point was so much cheaper to begin with?

 

[technomancer]

Most attempts to 'revolutionize' or 'improve' guitar tone end up sounding like crap

 

[c7spheres]

...so why not just have a preamp that sounds good through a "good" speaker system in the first place?

That's what Helix and Axe Fx are, and the SGX and Rocktrons and Zoom's too. They're just preamps with effects in them. Few seem to like cab sim outputs on preamps though. I really liked the ones on the Recto and Formula pre's even as standalone on my other preamp/ v twin, but those were analog and well thought out by Boogie.
- The reason you can't/shouldn't have a good preamp straight to PA without a cab sim though is that it'd sound worse because those signals are meant for guitar power amps. Sounds more like a fizzy direct sound. The cab sims prepare the signal for a PA that's been leveled/ flatted out so the idea is it sounds as close as possible to the same regardless of PA as long as it's being balanced well. The idea of cab sim and 'cab ir's' is a marketing term for consumers so they don't get confused. It's code for 'convoluted white noise measurement algorithm' with IR's, and code for 'eq ilters' with analog sims. 'Turbro IR 2.0 max gold edition' sells much better. lol. Not baking it in to the preamp leaves routing and tone options available

 

[budda]

Both sides, amp and digital, get weirdly defensive about it.

I have both, so Im just weird

(He says after posting a video of using a starter amp in a/b with a classic beloved high gain head)

 

[GunpointMetal]

But again, just like the modelling argument, why go to all the trouble to make a perfect speaker, just to jam an IR on it to make it sound just like the imperfect speaker you started with? Especially when the imperfect starting point was so much cheaper to begin with?

- The reason you can't/shouldn't have a good preamp straight to PA without a cab sim though is that it'd sound worse because those signals are meant for guitar power amps. Sounds more like a fizzy direct sound. The cab sims prepare the signal for a PA that's been leveled/ flatted out so the idea is it sounds as close as possible to the same regardless of PA as long as it's being balanced well. The idea of cab sim and 'cab ir's' is a marketing term for consumers so they don't get confused. It's code for 'convoluted white noise measurement algorithm' with IR's, and code for 'eq ilters' with analog sims. 'Turbro IR 2.0 max gold edition' sells much better. lol. Not baking it in to the preamp leaves routing and tone options available

You don't need an IR if your preamp doesn't need to be filtered through guitar cab to not sound like shit. If bassists, vocalists, etc can use a preamp straight into a FR speaker system without it ripping anyone's face off, I would assume there would be a way to do it with guitar as well. Guitar cabs suck. They sound different in every room, they're dependent on stage construction/placement for things to sound "right", they're dependent on competent mic placement to sound good through a decent PA system, etc etc. IMO modeling/IRs take some of this out of the equation, but its just providing an idealized sound of a shit speaker system (often requiring multiple mics/specific placement to get there).

 

[TedEH]

You don't need an IR if your preamp doesn't need to be filtered through guitar cab to not sound like shit.

Except that preamps DO need that filtering. It doesn't matter if it comes from a cab or IR or whatever else, the truth of the matter is that a raw, unfiltered, distorted guitar doesn't sound good. It needs something else in the chain to shape it into something we enjoy listening to. It just happens that our "imperfect" speakers do this job well.

The way to make preamps sound good "without a speaker" is to filter them - which is exactly what an IR or cab does. So you're back to square one. It doesn't matter what solution you pick - if it sounds good to you, then do it. You don't have to pick a "side".

I guess that leads to my unpopular take:
The "problems" with guitar cabs are greatly exaggerated just to justify a choice of digital over physical amps. The whole "they sound vastly different in every place" thing is mostly nonsense, because every other sound source ALSO is affected by that space, whether it's an IR through FRFR, or someone's voice through a PA, or a raw acoustic instrument, etc - they ALL are impacted, in pretty much the same way, by that space. The only thing the IR solves is mic placement.

 

[GunpointMetal]

I guess that leads to my unpopular take:
The "problems" with guitar cabs are greatly exaggerated just to justify a choice of digital over physical amps. The whole "they sound vastly different in every place" thing is mostly nonsense, because every other sound source ALSO is affected by that space, whether it's an IR through FRFR, or someone's voice through a PA, or a raw acoustic instrument, etc - they ALL are impacted, in pretty much the same way, by that space. The only thing the IR solves is mic placement.

I can say with 100% belief that my FRFR monitoring setup sounds 95% the same in any room. Never experienced that with a traditional cab no matter how nice they were. In-the room sound aside, I'd still be going DI digitally just because I LOVE my iems and most of those issues that impact everything are going to be accounted for at the sound system level, not the individual channel level. At last according to the several professional FOH engineers I've played with in bands over the years. I'm not saying anyone should anything other than what they like, but lets not pretend that the traditional guitar cab wasn't designed to be loud and fit in a certain amount of space instead of being built around getting the most from the speaker system.

 

[Choop]

Using a DI box live could be a simple way to maintain some extra consistency when playing with a regular tube amp setup (assuming it would make much of a difference depending on the type of venue you were at).

 

[TedEH]

I can say with 100% belief that my FRFR monitoring setup sounds 95% the same in any room. Never experienced that with a traditional cab no matter how nice they were.

I'm all for IEMs and not having to mic things - but this just isn't true, as far as I'm aware - at least not for the reasons you're suggesting. There's nothing different about those two speakers to where one would be affected by the room and the other would not, outside of some kind of cabinet design that solves for beaming, etc. All other things being equal, a guitar speaker vs. a full range speaker would not be affected differently by a room, that's just not how sound works. I'd be more willing to bet that what you're experiencing is some feature of the cabinet design to throw sound in all directions, rather than being a side-effect of using a full-range speaker.

At that point, though, you're talking about cabinet design though, and not IR vs speaker. I've heard of all kinds of wacky cabinet designs that claimed to defeat beaming etc.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I can say with 100% belief that my FRFR monitoring setup sounds 95% the same in any room.

I mean, that's physically impossible, but okay.

Like, the sound waves are still bouncing off the room. There's nothing special about FRFR speakers that let's them break the rules.

When you go to a venue the speaker array is precisely placed and directed to work best within that space, at least it should be.

I say that as someone who plays a modeler through an FRFR array most of the time.

 

[TedEH]

at least it should be

That's a really big maybe in most places I've been.

 

[GunpointMetal]

You're right, it's the widening/lessening of the beam that allows the speaker to sound more similar from room to room, but that doesn't change the fact that guitar cabs don't. And for the time being, I'm stuck with gear that emulates antiquated technology, but arguing for it's necessity or that it is somehow better because of it's relatively poor function doesn't make any sense. People like to make bass player intelligence jokes, but at least they're willing to give new stuff a go a lot easier than the average guitarist.

 

[GunpointMetal]

The further profiling/capture tech advances the closer it becomes modeling where you do all of the work.

 

[TedEH]

that doesn't change the fact that guitar cabs don't

Except that some do. There are cabs out there with all kinds of wacky designs to fix those kinds of problems, but they never caught on.

 

[LiveOVErdrive]

I wish they'd make more vertical 412s. Those would disperse sound better and have less weird phasing issues than the usual 2x2 arrangement.

Like a line array.

 

[GunpointMetal]

Except that some do. There are cabs out there with all kinds of wacky designs to fix those kinds of problems, but they never caught on.

Because guitar players are scared of things that don’t look the part.

 

[c7spheres]

You don't need an IR if your preamp doesn't need to be filtered through guitar cab to not sound like shit. If bassists, vocalists, etc can use a preamp straight into a FR speaker system without it ripping anyone's face off, I would assume there would be a way to do it with guitar as well. Guitar cabs suck. They sound different in every room, they're dependent on stage construction/placement for things to sound "right", they're dependent on competent mic placement to sound good through a decent PA system, etc etc. IMO modeling/IRs take some of this out of the equation, but its just providing an idealized sound of a shit speaker system (often requiring multiple mics/specific placement to get there).

Most preamps had the direct and cab/tuned outputs or a slave out etc. pretty much all racks did at least. If it sounds good without it though then that'd be even better. Without it would usually just be dialing in from the board.
- I'm a big fan of analog filter cab sims like Ada, Redbox, DMC Cabtone, Sequis , Palmer, Radial etc. They all do a really good if dialed in. It's all relative to if it's what you're looking for and acceptable for what you want, but usually preamps without something like that become fizzy. Usually a tube power amp tames all that bad stuff anyways, so post power amp capture via load box, mic etc is stil probably best anyways. I really want that power amp part of the equation in there though for what I like.
- I think the best setup is going to be an iso cab with a real mic and a mic also on the monitor. This way you get the total tone in a controlled space and can still control natural feedback at the same time. Modellers and load boxes don't do this at all or very well. With a modeller it's going to be the best way if a managable consistant setup is wanted. WIth anything else it's going to need more attention.

 

[budda]

The further profiling/capture tech advances the closer it becomes modeling where you do all of the work.

Can you define “all of the work” because I am very tired and want to be sure im following.

Because guitar players are scared of things that don’t look the part.

Yep.