Vik Drama: Round 3

[Mik3D23]

People might disagree with homosexuality, and thats fine. Not everyone is on board with the idea. When people say they have issues with it, I dont grab a loud speaker and stand on the corner of city hall and dispense my distaste for said person. I feel that, in a way is what happened.

What is there to disagree with about homosexuality? Since you like color analogies; that's like someone saying they disagree with my liking of the color blue. And if that's not absurd enough, they would go out and be an outspoken opponent of my said fondness of the color blue. And even start committing hate crimes against fellow blue-likers.

 

[Chokey Chicken]

Yeah, it's sort of one of those things that if you don't like it, don't partake in it. If you don't partake in it, it has zero effect on your life.

 

[molsoncanadian]

Yeah, it's sort of one of those things that if you don't like it, don't partake in it. If you don't partake in it, it has zero effect on your life.

I have returned momentarily!

Chokey Chicken basically summed up my points. Everyone berated my opinions to the likes of "we need to make big deals about this stuff so that the movement gets traction!" "I care about people, so this is why I said what I did" Well, I emplore you to fly out to see Vik. He has an opinion on something that I would be willing to bet my life savings, will not be changed through any amount of conversation/action.

Furthermore, respect for the gay community should come through positive forms, not by publicly scolding opposing opinions. You dont change opinions by trashing the way other people think, it comes from conversation, listening, a little open mindedness. Not gathering SSO with pitch forks and hunting down Vik.

But once again, I have to apologize if I came across as defending Vik. That was NEVER my intention. I just read this whole thing and thought to myself "honestly guys?" That and all of the "I hope your son is gay." "Go fall in a butthole." is just sad to read.

 

[asher]

I have returned momentarily!

Chokey Chicken basically summed up my points. Everyone berated my opinions to the likes of "we need to make big deals about this stuff so that the movement gets traction!" "I care about people, so this is why I said what I did" Well, I emplore you to fly out to see Vik. He has an opinion on something that I would be willing to bet my life savings, will not be changed through any amount of conversation/action.

There's likely very little that can be done to change his mind, but it was aimed not at him, but at a generalized people-who-see-it.

Furthermore, respect for the gay community should come through positive forms, not by publicly scolding opposing opinions. You dont change opinions by trashing the way other people think, it comes from conversation, listening, a little open mindedness. Not gathering SSO with pitch forks and hunting down Vik.

If we can discard the extra color commentary (see below), there's a problem here: at the source, this is not a two-way discussion. It is not a debate in good faith; the opposing party is not willing to engage at all, so there is very little to engage *with*.

Further: we know these things are hateful, hurtful, etc, what do we gain from an open mind to that? Remove emotion, and they logically fall over with a stiff breeze. There is no reason not to say the emperor is naked. I'm also going to steal an awesome quote from Grand Moff Tim's signature:

"We must not indulge in unfavorable views of mankind, since by doing it we make bad men believe they are no worse than others, and we teach the good that they are good in vain." - Walter Winchell

But once again, I have to apologize if I came across as defending Vik. That was NEVER my intention. I just read this whole thing and thought to myself "honestly guys?" That and all of the "I hope your son is gay." "Go fall in a butthole." is just sad to read.

I agree, I don't like reading that stuff either I think your first post just read like you were coming out swinging and you hadn't quite articulated what you meant well yet. I definitely understand, I just disagree

 

[molsoncanadian]

There's likely very little that can be done to change his mind, but it was aimed not at him, but at a generalized people-who-see-it.



If we can discard the extra color commentary (see below), there's a problem here: at the source, this is not a two-way discussion. It is not a debate in good faith; the opposing party is not willing to engage at all, so there is very little to engage *with*.

Further: we know these things are hateful, hurtful, etc, what do we gain from an open mind to that? Remove emotion, and they logically fall over with a stiff breeze. There is no reason not to say the emperor is naked. I'm also going to steal an awesome quote from Grand Moff Tim's signature:

"We must not indulge in unfavorable views of mankind, since by doing it we make bad men believe they are no worse than others, and we teach the good that they are good in vain." - Walter Winchell



I agree, I don't like reading that stuff either I think your first post just read like you were coming out swinging and you hadn't quite articulated what you meant well yet. I definitely understand, I just disagree

Yes, I certainly may have articulated my thought's poorly, however I think your addition further proves my point.

this is not a two-way discussion. It is not a debate in good faith; the opposing party is not willing to engage at all, so there is very little to engage *with*.

To which I will add, this is basically what I have been trying to say. Vik is a gone-er. There is no changing that mans mind. He is obviously stubborn with his ideals, and people arguing just gives him validation. Im sure he loved the drama.

I think this was one of those "let sleeping dog's sleep." Let him destroy his own reputation. Dont soil yours with the likes of his. The whole Bulb, Nolly thing just adds more fuel to the fire. Just drop the endorsements, that alone is acknowledgement that his services werent up to par.

And while we might disagree on certain things, I truly do respect the opinions of others, I just disagree as well.

 

[Alberto7]

While I agree that ViK is... well... it's already been said, I think that it shouldn't be only his anti-LGBT comments that should be brought to light, but also the way he has treated his customers (and even non-customers), which I find just as abhorrent. His anti-gay comments were, in my opinion, the icing on the cake, really. I wish that both things would make it into the news so that everybody would get a glimpse of who this guy actually is.

 

[Electric Wizard]

"Go fall in a butthole."

I'm sorry...

 

[asher]

I'm sorry...

I really can't get into the "I hope you have a gay kid!" comment in any way, but this one secretly makes my inner 8 year old happy

 

[tacotiklah]

I've been hesitant to really say anything on this as I wanted to see how people would react first. I remember the last time I said something regarding Vik's propensity for using his business to spout hateful things, I got slagged for it pretty hard. Tbvh, at first I thought the same thing would happen if I spoke on this too soon. I have to say though, I'm really proud of the stance the majority of both this forum and the metal community in general have taken against the anti-gay remarks that were made. You guys are awesome and it means a lot to LGBT forumers like myself.

I also would like to point out to those that have a more "live and let live" attitude a very important thing. It is said that we must all fear evil men. But there is a worse kind of evil and it is far more damaging. That evil is the apathy of good men. Those that actively work against a group of people are banking on your apathy so that they can continue to do their hateful work without reproach. If you feel that it is none of your concern when others suffer, that says more about you than those that are causing said suffering.

I also want to implore to other builders on here, please learn from these companies that are doing crazy stuff. The things they are doing are causing a growing distrust in the custom shop market. It's a LOT to ask of a customer to give you large sums of money up front in the hopes that you'll eventually deliver the product of the quality that you claim and in the timetable that you claim. The kind of trust being given to you guys is more than I would give to even some members of my own family. I'm honestly very saddened to see more and more luthiers circling the drain, and it really bothers me to see so many people invest hard earned money into bad luthiers that will take their money and run, go WAY over the estimated build and shipping time, and/or deliver a substandard product. It has bothered me to the point that I once even made the trip to Hesperia to find out what was going on and to see what I could do to help people get their guitars.
Please always have the utmost respect for every customer that places an order, and therefore, the highest level of trust in and with your company. Every customer is what builds your business and allows it to prosper. It should not matter their race, gender, creed, nationality, orientation, physical and/or mental disability. What should matter is that they believe in the work you do so strongly that they will throw money at you and wait long periods of time for that fine craftsmanship that you have staked your very livelihoods on.

In short, don't be a Vik.

 

[Jonathan20022]

If I have read this correctly, than yes. You can say, "I dont like him, he's a dumbass." However, posting a facebook status, and making waves on social media about it, makes you the dumbass IMO. Bulb and Nolly are well aware of how their words can affect, and they chose to go about this in the un-classiest matter possible IMO. Just drop your endorsement and leave Vik alone. We don't need your nobel peace prize speech on why you dont like how he thinks. I can't help but wonder if this would have gotten all swept under the rug if it wasnt for those 2, which is probably the way it should have gone.

At the heart of this all, I just hate that Vik's income may/will be affected by all of this. The guy is a luthier, not a fvcking poet. He makes what I assume to be (I dont have any experience) high quality guitars, and has probably spent alot of hard work and money/sacrifice getting to where he is. And 2 prepubscent public figures could effectively cripple his market. That is what irks me. You endorse his guitar, not his opinions.

Well yes, that does make him a dumbass considering he made a controversial statement just like you said. And yes Misha and Nolly do both know how influential they are, I'm sure staying silent and not saying anything would have been better right? If I were them I'd have done the same thing, publicly cut ties because in today's world, most of the public simply can't digest information and think about it logically.

Many people would have basically read into it like this, "Vik made a homophobic statement, and Nolly endorses his product and business, does he also agree with these ideals?".

So it only makes sense to detach yourself from a situation, various musicians were also asked about their stance on Gay Rights and Same Sex Marriages after this blew up. People eat this stuff up and look for someone else to put under scrutiny because many people are just headline readers.

And on the subject of just dropping their endorsements and moving along...

I paid for the balance of the guitar in full in January with the promise that the guitar would be ready by NAMM. It wasn't. When I asked for an update as to when my guitar would be sent out earlier today, Vik made it clear that he would not send me the guitar if I did not agree with and support his viewpoints. I told him that my morals and ethics are worth more than a guitar.

Vik has Misha's funds already pocketed, and in his words he basically said that if Misha didn't agree with Vik's ideals he would not be receiving something he paid for. That's ....ed up in and of itself and for a guy to demand that of an artist, it should be made public.

HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION:
Imagine going to buy yourself a nice car from a gentlemen that looks a normal guy. And after paying, and you go to collect your car, you're only allowed to do so if you agree and adopt Neo-Nazi ideals and beliefs.

That's horrid and the person should be outed for doing so, same with any racists, homophobes, and criminals that choose to make their customer base take their opinions forcibly. Which is what he's doing to his artists, can you imagine the treatment customers are getting? I do hope his business collapses, because even before the homophobia his customer service and actions should have condemned him enough. But customers apparently have a high tolerance for pain and suffering before they actually do anything about it.

EDIT: This thread moves fast haha, I saw this was already addressed I'm just late.

 

[fps]

Vik isn't the issue, Vik is a closed-minded little bigot. The issue is sending a message out to everyone else whose minds may not be made up on how they think about the issue and how they view the world. It's about making people who are gay and worry about being abused for that feel a little less alone, and about making people who use homophobic language casually without thinking about its effects consider their viewpoints and maybe change them. This is a perfect way to draw attention to the issue and show support for the right side. That being the side who don't believe in making other people's lives more difficult simply because of their sexuality.

 

[narad]

Vik has Misha's funds already pocketed, and in his words he basically said that if Misha didn't agree with Vik's ideals he would not be receiving something he paid for. That's ....ed up in and of itself and for a guy to demand that of an artist, it should be made public.

I see this misinterpreted a lot. Vik didn't send a message to Misha saying, "Look, Misha, I don't like the gays. I'm going to post about it this week. Do you have my back, or do I have your guitar?"

This is pretty standard: give a guy a discounted guitar, expect that he plugs it on every guitar forum and says how great it is. That's the price of the discount. It's a business transaction. And hmm...where have I seen gear plugged all over the internet before? It's a shame people aren't required to post whether they paid full price in their NGDs, but you should at least be wise to the fact that it happens -- that's guitar forums and marketing 101 type of stuff.

 

[stevexc]

I see this misinterpreted a lot. Vik didn't send a message to Misha saying, "Look, Misha, I don't like the gays. I'm going to post about it this week. Do you have my back, or do I have your guitar?"

I dunno, this kind of implies that it may actually have been something along those lines:

When I asked for an update as to when my guitar would be sent out earlier today, Vik made it clear that he would not send me the guitar if I did not agree with and support his viewpoints.

But that's without seeing the original text. But I follow you in regards to the rest of the post.

 

[Promit]

Vik isn't the issue, Vik is a closed-minded little bigot. The issue is sending a message out to everyone else whose minds may not be made up on how they think about the issue and how they view the world. It's about making people who are gay and worry about being abused for that feel a little less alone, and about making people who use homophobic language casually without thinking about its effects consider their viewpoints and maybe change them. This is a perfect way to draw attention to the issue and show support for the right side. That being the side who don't believe in making other people's lives more difficult simply because of their sexuality.

This is where I sit as well. This isn't a live-and-let-live about opinions. People's lives get destroyed as long as Vik's brand of speech is considered socially acceptable. Creating consequences for that is part of the goal.

 

[Jonathan20022]

I see this misinterpreted a lot. Vik didn't send a message to Misha saying, "Look, Misha, I don't like the gays. I'm going to post about it this week. Do you have my back, or do I have your guitar?"

This is pretty standard: give a guy a discounted guitar, expect that he plugs it on every guitar forum and says how great it is. That's the price of the discount. It's a business transaction. And hmm...where have I seen gear plugged all over the internet before? It's a shame people aren't required to post whether they paid full price in their NGDs, but you should at least be wise to the fact that it happens -- that's guitar forums and marketing 101 type of stuff.

It does seem a little ridiculous to expect that of his customers, and if it was just something lost in translation then I just took it for what it said. But I still think those guys have every right to say what they did, I don't think any of it was done unprofessionally but rather it was done very honestly.

I do agree that at the very least it should be noted whether or not the guitar being showcased was something traded or bought for a discount in exchange for exposure. But it does happen quite often sadly, I noticed it when I was a lot younger in the game industry that websites were basically paid to give certain games their scores. Making any review hard to believe or trust, but of course it isn't mandatory it's better to at least know that it does happen.

 

[JohnIce]

All this Devil's Advocate reasoning… I was taught in school that ignoring bullying was just as bad as being the bully. We were taught as students to speak up against it and not let it happen. No one ever called bullying "a different opinion", it was called bullying and it was wrong, end of story.

Don't see how adults picking on gays is "opinion" but 10-year olds picking on the fat kid is not. Looks the fvcking same to me, dude.

 

[Chokey Chicken]

I have returned momentarily!

Chokey Chicken basically summed up my points. Everyone berated my opinions to the likes of "we need to make big deals about this stuff so that the movement gets traction!" "I care about people, so this is why I said what I did" Well, I emplore you to fly out to see Vik. He has an opinion on something that I would be willing to bet my life savings, will not be changed through any amount of conversation/action.

Don't get me wrong, hating someone because they're doing something that has zero effect on you is stupid. (Ie: hating gays.) But, like Asher said, it's not a two way street. If someone has their life interfered with in a negative way because they're doing something that has no effect on anyone else, it is not at all out of line to become angry and boycott stuff.

He has a hurtful point of view that won't change, sure, but boycotting stuff like this cripples the influence someone like him has. Staying quiet about it just lets it fester, and the chances are more likely that people will buy into it.

 

[bhakan]

Exivious being awesome

 

[WildBroskiAppears]

Oh boy...

edit: I find it funny that he says "one well-known person" at first and then straight name drops him at the end

 

[Rev2010]

Boy, been following this thread all day. I'll say this first, I have gay friends, one of which was my best friend for a long time. I think gays should have equal marriage rights and be respected because why not? They aren't affecting my life in a single negative way! Matter of fact, I've found most to be of the stereotypically smart, clean, well mannered type. I actually really like gays. And they are just so much fun to hang with, they really are. So full of life and joy. But some of the reaction I would expect for someone that is more actively anti-gay. I've read bullying, hate, all sorts of stuff but I only seem to see three comments from Vik. That first obscure Facebook post, his followup FB post, and that BS attempt at some for of non-apology. But how is Vik bullying guys if this is the first time we're finding out he doesn't care for gays? I'm sure if he were hate mongering we would've heard more and worse by now no?

Again, I in NO way condone such a mentality, but it sounds like people want to see his house and shop burnt to the ground. Anywho, his business is likely ruined and I couldn't care, actually reading some of his other history with his business I'm kinda happy he has to go through this as it seems he's an all around bad person. I just can't get with the accusations of all his hate mongering bigotry without seeing something a bit more vile being spewed from him. To me his comments so far just seem like a closed minded old school fool that hasn't learned better from life experiences. Educating him would probably do better than lynching him.


Rev.