Vik Drama: Round 3

[Chokey Chicken]

Boy, been following this thread all day. I'll say this first, I have gay friends, one of which was my best friend for a long time. I think gays should have equal marriage rights and be respected because why not? They aren't affecting my life in a single negative way! Matter of fact, I've found most to be of the stereotypically smart, clean, well mannered type. I actually really like gays. And they are just so much fun to hang with, they really are. So full of life and joy. But some of the reaction I would expect for someone that is more actively anti-gay. I've read bullying, hate, all sorts of stuff but I only seem to see three comments from Vik. That first obscure Facebook post, his followup FB post, and that BS attempt at some for of non-apology. But how is Vik bullying guys if this is the first time we're finding out he doesn't care for gays? I'm sure if he were hate mongering we would've heard more and worse by now no?

Again, I in NO way condone such a mentality, but it sounds like people want to see his house and shop burnt to the ground. Anywho, his business is likely ruined and I couldn't care, actually reading some of his other history with his business I'm kinda happy he has to go through this as it seems he's an all around bad person. I just can't get with the accusations of all his hate mongering bigotry without seeing something a bit more vile being spewed from him. To me his comments so far just seem like a closed minded old school fool that hasn't learned better from life experiences. Educating him would probably do better than lynching him.


Rev.

I actually haven't bothered going to his Facebook page, and I wouldn't dream of actually threatening him. He is a human being, and violence of any sort is bad. At the same time, I'm just glad it blew up like it did so people know what kind of person they're giving their money to. Personally, I'd hate myself if I found out that I gave a large sum of money to someone who would treat me like trash if they knew me for me.

I don't condone or support violence, but I do support throwing a stink and pulling funding.

Edit: not saying you're ragging on me specifically. I know you're not.

 

[Rev2010]

Oh I definitely agree it's good it's been brought to light so people can be aware who they're dealing with. And I'm glad he now has to contend with this. Was just referring to the statements that he's a hate mongering, bullying, bigot just based off of what I've read so far. I too haven't gone to his page nor seen anything further than the 3 or so posts from him I mentioned. Maybe there even was more I missed.


Rev.

 

[Promit]

Boy, been following this thread all day. I'll say this first, I have gay friends, one of which was my best friend for a long time. I think gays should have equal marriage rights and be respected because why not? They aren't affecting my life in a single negative way! Matter of fact, I've found most to be of the stereotypically smart, clean, well mannered type. I actually really like gays. And they are just so much fun to hang with, they really are. So full of life and joy. But some of the reaction I would expect for someone that is more actively anti-gay. I've read bullying, hate, all sorts of stuff but I only seem to see three comments from Vik. That first obscure Facebook post, his followup FB post, and that BS attempt at some for of non-apology. But how is Vik bullying guys if this is the first time we're finding out he doesn't care for gays? I'm sure if he were hate mongering we would've heard more and worse by now no?

Again, I in NO way condone such a mentality, but it sounds like people want to see his house and shop burnt to the ground. Anywho, his business is likely ruined and I couldn't care, actually reading some of his other history with his business I'm kinda happy he has to go through this as it seems he's an all around bad person. I just can't get with the accusations of all his hate mongering bigotry without seeing something a bit more vile being spewed from him. To me his comments so far just seem like a closed minded old school fool that hasn't learned better from life experiences. Educating him would probably do better than lynching him.

Oh I definitely agree it's good it's been brought to light so people can be aware who they're dealing with. And I'm glad he now has to contend with this. Was just referring to the statements that he's a hate mongering, bullying, bigot just based off of what I've read so far. I too haven't gone to his page nor seen anything further than the 3 or so posts from him I mentioned. Maybe there even was more I missed.

Okay, let's rewind here for a second, because I think we've forgotten some very important context in 24 hours.

Vik's original comment was NOT a generic, thrown in the wind random thought. It wasn't an observation in response to a question. It wasn't in any way prompted. What Vik did, right up front, without reason or provocation, was to backhandedly attack a well known musician on the day he decided to publicly come out, which is itself a significant moment for many homosexual people.

That's not expressing an opinion. That's NOT his beliefs. This asshole came out and attacked a specific person for their sexual orientation. That's fvcking hate speech, harassment, abuse, whatever you want to call it. It isn't better that he did it in an oddball circuitous way that included headless guitars. It isn't better that it's just his Christian belief or that's how he was raised. It doesn't matter that Paul himself is not letting himself be affected by it.

Vik went after a specific person for being gay. Unprovoked. He deserves NO consideration. His beliefs deserve NO consideration. His comments after the fact deserve NO consideration for as long as they don't include a flat out apology for going after somebody, which they obviously never will. So let's absolutely not pretend that he's being victimized for his quiet beliefs. That's bullshit. He's being attacked for going on the OFFENSIVE - in every sense of the word.

 

[Zalbu]

Oh boy...

edit: I find it funny that he says "one well-known person" at first and then straight name drops him at the end

He doesn't even try to disprove what Misha said, smells fishy to me.

 

[Chokey Chicken]

I doubt much more was said, but it's good to adopt a zero tolerance kinda thing when it comes to hate speech. Even a not-so-friendly offhand racial remark (or in this case homophobic) should be treated with seriousness. It might be easier for some to overlook, but people like Vik have a great deal of control over my life. Nothing he personally does will ever effect me, but he might to other lgbt folks where he lives. If I can take even a small amount of control away from him and make somebody's life even a tiny bit better because of that, I'll gladly do it, provided I don't compromise my morals in the process.

In this day and age, it really does pay to be active in these situations. The most a lot of us can do is withdraw funding in hopes of decreasing his voice's reach.

In all honesty, I don't actually hate him. He is a product of his environment, and that is unfortunately overwhelmingly anti-gay. Still, it'd be criminal to not at least try to do something, and I did all that I could. I pulled my cash from him, and will gladly point people in a different, friendlier, direction if I'm ever asked for advice on which custom shop to go. Maybe that is too much, but I feel it is all most of us can do, since most of us will never be personally effected by anything he does. I'd articulate myself a little better if I weren't typing this up on a phone, so I'll just stop here before I talk in more circles.

 

[Promit]

Still, it'd be criminal to not at least try to do something, and I did all that I could. I pulled my cash from him, and will gladly point people in a different, friendlier, direction if I'm ever asked for advice on which custom shop to go.

Just for curiosity's sake, did you actually cancel an existing order with him?

 

[Chokey Chicken]

Just for curiosity's sake, did you actually cancel an existing order with him?

I should have said I decided not to go with Vik, but a friend of mine is in the process of canceling.

 

[Rev2010]

So let's absolutely not pretend that he's being victimized for his quiet beliefs. That's bullshit.

Victimized? Where the hell did I say he was being victimized? Nowhere did I say that. See your reaction to my post is an example of how aggressively reactive some are being. Let me ask this... everyone so far is saying people being gay doesn't affect his life at all so why should he care? And I 100% agree with those sentiments. But how does his Facebook post affect the gay community in a negative way? I don't think anyone's life is going to be negatively changed by it, quite the contrary as it seems most are banding together in support of the LBGT community.

Anyhow, don't know why you seem irked by my post. As I said, I'm 100% fully in support of the LGBT community. I'm only pointing out the words people using words people are using, based only on the 3 or so posts from him that I've read, that seem a bit overexcessive. In what way is he now *bullying* gay people? What has he done to show that he's an active hate monger? And more so, if he were hate mongering why did we only find out *yesterday*. That is my point. Again, I'm *glad* he now has to deal with this and I'm glad with the ways in which it will affect him. I'm just saying let's not jump to making him equal to violent Neo-Nazi gay attackers just based on those few things he said. That's all. I didn't say people shouldn't react or feel the way they do, sure they should! I'm just saying let's keep the name calling a bit more accurate. He's an ignorant homophobe and now he will have to content with the result of making it known.


Rev.

 

[Promit]

Victimized? Where the hell did I say he was being victimized? Nowhere did I say that. See your reaction to my post is an example of how aggressively reactive some are being.

That was not my intent and I'm not irked by your post. I just found it a useful springboard into addressing some of the defenses that have been made over the course of both threads. I should have been more clear.

 

[7stg]

This is a serious issue and not to be taken lightly. The hate expressed in words all to often escalates into acts of violence. These attacks against the LGBT community are similar to the abuses that were faced by racial minority groups from often the same hate groups.



There are regular news stories documenting the violence committed against those in the LGBT community.
Philly Man Allegedly Beaten to Death After Using Grindr :: EDGE on the Net
US: Alabama woman charged with murder of son’s gay lover · PinkNews.co.uk
Five Arrested In Williamsburg Beating Of Gay Black Man


For vik to claim he is a christian looks a lot like this. Vik Drama: Round 3 - post #297

We should all be well aware of the hate crimes that the klan has committed against minorities for the last several centuries which mirror what is faced by the LGBT community.

 

[Chokey Chicken]

Victimized? Where the hell did I say he was being victimized? Nowhere did I say that. See your reaction to my post is an example of how aggressively reactive some are being. Let me ask this... everyone so far is saying people being gay doesn't affect his life at all so why should he care? And I 100% agree with those sentiments. But how does his Facebook post affect the gay community in a negative way? I don't think anyone's life is going to be negatively changed by it, quite the contrary as it seems most are banding together in support of the LBGT community.

Anyhow, don't know why you seem irked by my post. As I said, I'm 100% fully in support of the LGBT community. I'm only pointing out people using words to describe him, based only on the 3 or so posts from him that I've read, that seem a bit overexcessive. In what way is he now *bullying* gay people? What has he done to show that he's an active hate monger? And more so, if he were hate mongering why did we only find out *yesterday*. That is my point. Again, I'm *glad* he now has to deal with this and I'm glad with the ways in which it will affect him. I'm just saying let's not jump to making him equal to violent Neo-Nazi gay attackers just based on those few things he said. That's all. I didn't say people shouldn't react or feel the way they do, sure they should! I'm just saying let's keep the name calling to a bit more accurate. He's an ignorant homophobe and now he will have to content with the result of making it known.


Rev.

You see, if you just let people like this keep spewing shit, then it just perpetuates hate. How he treats gays doesn't effect me personally, but it might effect someone else. Just because he's not effecting me, doesn't mean he's effecting nobody. By perpetuating the hate, he's indirectly effecting me as well. Ignoring it just normalizes it. As a supporter of lgbt, it would be in the interest of your allies that punks like him aren't allowed to reach the masses. We limit his influence by taking his platform away the best we can. Having a hateful train of thought is dangerous enough without 15k people following you. If you can influence those 15k people to also think it's acceptable to be hateful, then that is not a good thing. Everyone needs to try to combat his influence with positive influence.

 

[tacotiklah]

^^I'll double down on that and add this:
Bringing Health Information to the Community (BHIC) » Blog Archive » Transgender Suicide Rates Highlight Injustices


That's right, 90% of transgender people face discriminatory practices while on the job and 41% have attempted suicide because of bullying and/or harassment. This isn't some made up bullshit, but cold hard facts as presented by medical professionals. These statistics are for the US only, I can only shudder to think of what LGBTs in other countries are going through. Putin-led Russia is promoting human rights abuses that are sickening, with many LGBT people being beaten, harassed, and even killed just for who they are.

Another thing that people completely ignore:
Persecution of Homosexuals in the Third Reich

While there are no hard numbers (due to the fact that even after the holocaust, gay survivors were subjected to cruelty and therefore reluctant to come forward about their experiences), it is estimated that 150,000 LGBT people died in the holocaust.

Point being, people just don't grasp the real reason why starting shit with the LGBT community can be very damaging. Good rule of thumb:
Be the kind of person that your grandchildren won't look at the floor in shame when they speak of you to others.

 

[Rev2010]

You see, if you just let people like this keep spewing shit, then it just perpetuates hate.

I agree, but his initial post was a vague obscure comment that most didn't pickup on until those better in the know pointed it out. He didn't post something ,for example, along the lines of the Westboro baptist chruch's hate mongering. Just saying some are reacting as aggressively as if he'd said something so outright vile like from the WBC.

Having a hateful train of thought is dangerous enough without 15k people following you. If you can influence those 15k people to also think it's acceptable to be hateful, then that is not a good thing.

Seems like he's not getting the support of those 15K followers, quite the contrary thankfully

Everyone needs to try to combat his influence with positive influence.

Aaaand it looks like so far there's little positive influence being done to combat his ignorant way of thinking. So far it's aggressive reactions towards his intolerance/ignorance/etc. See I feel sadder for him having to live and think the way he does rather than outright anger. I save outright anger for those that harm gay people because they are gay. I don't stand for that shit at all, not one bit. Those videos posted, I can't watch that shit because it angers me so much I want to be there to fight back against those assholes. Anyhow, I don't think my point is getting across so I'll let it at this post. My point was only about the *labels* being assigned based on what I've read him say so far. He's wrong and ignorant, no doubt about that whatsoever. But I just have issue with people using terms like he's bullying and hate mongering based off what I've read and only having his views come to light now. Peace all


Rev.

 

[Necris]

^ So what if he did?

 

[Chokey Chicken]

I agree, but his initial post was a vague obscure comment that most didn't pickup on until those better in the know pointed it out. He didn't post something ,for example, along the lines of the Westboro baptist chruch's hate mongering. Just saying some are reacting as aggressively as if he'd said something so outright vile like from the WBC.



Seems like he's not getting the support of those 15K followers, quite the contrary thankfully



Aaaand it looks like so far there's little positive influence being done to combat his ignorant way of thinking. So far it's aggressive reactions towards his intolerance/ignorance/etc. See I feel sadder for him having to live and think the way he does rather than outright anger. I save outright anger for those that harm gay people because they are gay. I don't stand for that shit at all, not one bit. Those videos posted, I can't watch that shit because it angers me so much I want to be there to fight back against those assholes. Anyhow, I don't think my point is getting across so I'll let it at this post. My point was only about the *labels* being assigned based on what I've read him say so far. He's wrong and ignorant, no doubt about that whatsoever. But I just have issue with people using terms like he's bullying and hate mongering based off what I've read and only having his views come to light now. Peace all


Rev.

I see what you're trying to say, but I don't entirely agree. (Though I do to an extent.) I won't drag the conversation on, since I'm having a hell of a time articulating my thoughts clearly right now. I like you, and I'd much rather not have a sub-argument with you, especially when you're on my side where it matters most.

 

[sessionswan]

I bet Vik anally masturbates.

I think you're missing the point of this discussion.

 

[JoshuaVonFlash]

^ Immature comments like that really aren't needed here.

 

[crg123]

Well this explains a lot... Jk and trying to lighten the mood. I've already made all my more serious contributions to this threads in the earlier pages...

The World's Heaviest Drinking Nations, Ranked
The World's Heaviest-Drinking Nations, Ranked

The average U.S. resident drinks 9.2 liters of pure alcohol a year, according to the Global Status Report on Alcohol and Health 2014. Compare that to the 17.5 litres drunk by the hard-partying population of Belarus, who top the drinking tables

I'm also part Belirusian btw haha

 

[Hollowway]

Yeah, I 100% agree that the comments Vik is making have a bad effect on the LGBT community, because others use that as rationalization for their actions. There's a reason people get up in arms about comments about not liking minority groups, but not about not liking hamburgers or not liking automatic transmissions. People are being killed by those who share the discriminatory beliefs. Yes, Vik could say he has no intentions of physically harming a gay person, but the argument is academic - gay people are being physically harmed by people who don't like them, and now they have another person who is "on their side."

And, again, I think a reasonable way to test this is to plug in another minority group into his original comment and see if that passes muster. If he said he didn't like 8 string guitars, because he just found out Tosin is black, would we be saying, "It's cool, he's not beating Tosin up. He's just voicing his opinion that he doesn't like black people. He's allowed to do that, and it's not like he's saying he's going to kill him."? I don't think so. So I don't think he's off the hook for this, either. Why are we so up in arms over it? Because, as a group, we have decided that it's no longer cool to discriminate against gay people. We can argue all day long about whether we should care or not if people like gay people or not, but at the end of the day, it's still what we have decided as a group is acceptable behavior.

 

[flint757]

The ultimate form of karma, is when people like this have children that turn out to be LGBT

IDK. I mean yeah it would be karmic justice, but I wouldn't wish someone to be born under the roof of someone who hates who you are as a person. I have family who grew up in such situations and they carry their childhoods through their entire lives.

It's sad how right your comment is. Not in a karma punishment sense, but the fact that they can't empathize with others until they themselves are forced to experience the normality of an LGBT person through a family member. I say forced because given the choice they wouldn't even try.

Valid point and in some cases true. That isn't always the case though. I'd be willing to bet more gay children are abused/abandoned by their parents if they were homophobic prior than them converting to their line of thinking. Gay conversion therapy is still a real thing as an example.

If I have read this correctly, than yes. You can say, "I dont like him, he's a dumbass." However, posting a facebook status, and making waves on social media about it, makes you the dumbass IMO. Bulb and Nolly are well aware of how their words can affect, and they chose to go about this in the un-classiest matter possible IMO. Just drop your endorsement and leave Vik alone. We don't need your nobel peace prize speech on why you dont like how he thinks. I can't help but wonder if this would have gotten all swept under the rug if it wasnt for those 2, which is probably the way it should have gone.

I agree with everyone else that Nolly and Misha made the right decision by making a statement for the reasons already stated elsewhere.

The one thing I want to point out is how hypocritical this post really is. You are only extending your position to benefit Vik. In truth what you are saying applies equally to everyone else as well, that includes Misha and Nolly when it comes to their 'nobel speech' rolleyes.

At the heart of this all, I just hate that Vik's income may/will be affected by all of this. The guy is a luthier, not a fvcking poet. He makes what I assume to be (I dont have any experience) high quality guitars, and has probably spent alot of hard work and money/sacrifice getting to where he is. And 2 prepubscent public figures could effectively cripple his market. That is what irks me. You endorse his guitar, not his opinions.

You sound like you like Vik a hell of a lot more than Misha and Nolly given the petty insult in the quote above.

On a completely different playing field we could equate this in a different way. If I found out that a business I frequented was funding criminal activity of some sort I'd likely stop supporting them as well. That would also affect their income and family, but ignoring the facts in that situation and continuing my business anyhow would be considered inappropriate by most people I think. The severity may be a little different, but the same principle applies here.

He should have been concerned about his income before he said anything at all. It is no one else's responsibility to make sure he has a paycheck at the end of the day other than himself. He should have evaluated the market he made the statement in and determined his thoughts are in the minority and as such kept them to himself. The fact that he didn't is all on him, not us. In the workplace, or when representing a business, talking about religion and politics (or politicized subjects) is a big no no anyhow. It was just an all around dumb decision.

Yes, because being so "supportive" of LGBT that wishing Vik bankruptcy and to die in a fire doesn't even come near the 'hate speech' he has expressed.

I'm willing to bet that about 70% of the people who are currently bandwagoning this whole deal, probably call someone a 'faggot' on a regular base.

I actually never use that word, but I'm also not a 12 year old playing Call of Duty soooo...

Facebook is a lot like youtube minus the anonymity. People tend to say stupid, outrageous things through these mediums. Welcome to the internet.

Here the majority of us have made no such statement making it largely irrelevant to the conversation. Generally commenters say stupid shit, not a new phenomenon. Go to a yahoo article and read the comments to get a real idea how shitty people can be.

WHO CARES!!!?!?! This is literally my whole point. Everyone loves when someone expresses their love for the gay community, Vik is doing the opposite and getting chastised. He is entitled to hate/love/feel indifferent, just as you are entitled to ignore.

You're correct as far as having those thoughts, but not when it comes to publicly stating them. We live in a capitalistic society that has a balance between supply and demand. The group that makes up his products demand do not agree with VIK at all it seems, therefore he should have never made them in the first place. The events that followed are all on him. It doesn't really matter if it is being 'blown out of proportion', it is what it is. He should have been more aware of his customers views if he was going to make such statements. As a business owner he shouldn't have made any such statement in the first place. The opposite happens too FYI. Plenty of Christians and bigots alike have boycotted companies that are pro-LGBT. This is not as one sided as the devil advocate camp are making it seem.

We too are entitled to

hate/love/feel indifferent, just as you are entitled to ignore.

no?

Be an adult, wipe your bum, and let it go. There's no need for a press release on everyones opinions. This honestly seems beyond silly to me.

Advice you could probably take as well don't you think? You'd feel differently if you were a part of a group being screwed over by another more accepted group of people. Apathy is rarely a thing to be proud of.

Your argument that they are taking food out of Vik's kids' mouths works the other way. As endorsees, they are representing Vik's brand, and standing by while Vik hates on gay people can be very easily taken as a tacit approval. It's in their interest economically to distance themselves, let alone the moral issues. Vik is doing the same damage to them as your logic says they've done to him.

That's a sound a respectable point. However, they could have just dropped the endorsement. There was no need to make a huge wave about it. I respect all opinions (Or I try to understand them anyways) and Vik doesnt like homosexuality. I am older myself and I understand that we aren't completely out of that demographic that is polarized by the gay movement. People might disagree with homosexuality, and thats fine. Not everyone is on board with the idea. When people say they have issues with it, I dont grab a loud speaker and stand on the corner of city hall and dispense my distaste for said person. I feel that, in a way is what happened.

He picked up the 'loudspeaker' first though. Social media is online networking. You reach more ears via facebook than you likely would yelling gibberish at a street corner. He brought it on himself by saying anything at all. A minority opinion should only be voiced if you in fact want a reaction or something to come of it. If you hold a minority opinion on something and don't really care about the issue at all you'd just say nothing to begin with. There'd be no backlash if he had said nothing.

Furthermore, respect for the gay community should come through positive forms, not by publicly scolding opposing opinions. You dont change opinions by trashing the way other people think, it comes from conversation, listening, a little open mindedness. Not gathering SSO with pitch forks and hunting down Vik.

Change doesn't come from being apathetic either though. Think of it from a conversational standpoint. I make a joke about gay people that becomes popular and maybe involves a homophobic slur (think that's gay or faggot as examples). People find these jokes funny and then the vernacular becomes a part of said culture. This then extends to children saying things like "that's gay" and meaning it in a negative light which then reflects on the idea of being gay as somehow being a bad thing by default. Not saying that this always happens or that this is even the case here, but mindsets can shift fairly quick from 'joke' to genuine disgust or hate. When I was a young kid, say 6 or 7, it was already really common to use the word gay to mean something was bad. These things have unspoken repercussions sometimes. Even if it doesn't legally or economically affect someone, it hurts them in a social context as their peers see themselves as 'better'.

To which I will add, this is basically what I have been trying to say. Vik is a gone-er. There is no changing that mans mind. He is obviously stubborn with his ideals, and people arguing just gives him validation. Im sure he loved the drama.

I think this was one of those "let sleeping dog's sleep." Let him destroy his own reputation. Dont soil yours with the likes of his. The whole Bulb, Nolly thing just adds more fuel to the fire. Just drop the endorsements, that alone is acknowledgement that his services werent up to par.

Yes, but if no one was talking about it his reputation wouldn't be ruined. The act of talking about it is in fact the only way to get people on board. I would not have know had I not checked this thread. His view may not change as a result of this, but someone else who comes across it very well may. It is for their benefit, not his, that this info be shared.

As far as Misha and Nolly, by representing Vik, Vik also represented them. Yes, ending their arrangement may have been enough, but not saying anything could, and probably would, damage their reputation too. That's ignoring the notion that they may be active in the movement to begin with in which a public statement would also make sense. If they quietly stepped out some people may not even be aware they ended their relationship with Vik making them look like they approve of his POV. This in turn can damage their reputation as well. Had they stated that they ended their endorsement to avoid this, without any details, certainly people would have asked. Stating outright is far simpler than being cryptic on the issue for no reason. The things mentioned in the post by Misha are personally things I'd want to know about a company before doing business (forcing someone to agree with their ideology before giving you your already paid for product, poor work habits, etc.).

[edit]

longer than expected.