Vik Drama: Round 3

[stevexc]

So, I've just got to say this because it's been irritating me for a while...

What Vik said was dick-ish, yes. Inappropriate for the head of a business to publicly state, sure. Did he actually mean, "I hate gay people"? I doubt it; but that's the way it was worded...

Anyway, onto the point I'm making... Sure, there are the small amount of people who truly don't like gay people. They hate them because of their sexual orientation, and that's just plain wrong. Somebody's sexual orientation is none of anyone else's business. However, I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gay people in and of themselves. But in the past year since the whole "gay rights" thing has been a huge topic (publicly, anyway), people are categorized into two groups that I've seen: those who are all about gay people and the gay lifestyle, and those who don't agree with it for whatever reason (usually religious reasoning). Those who agree with it are fine; those who don't agree with it are attacked, labeled as "ignorant bigots," hate mongers, backwoods hicks, threatened, and outright harassed.

THIS is what pisses me off about this whole LBGT rights argument - either you praise, accept, condone, and promote it, or you're a hate filled bigot. There's no middle ground, which is absolutely unacceptable. You cannot go around preaching tolerance and acceptance and in the same breath condemn and attack somebody for having beliefs that differ from your own. It's hypocritical and asinine. Generally, the reason I've seen a large number of people give is that their religion is Christianity or a similar religion that doesn't condone homosexuality, and when that is said, people start hurling insults that attack both the person and their religion. In what sane way is that acceptable?

Should Vik apologize anymore than he did in the Facebook post? I think he should, but only for the wording of his statements. The way they were worded expressed a hate for people who identified as homosexuals; his rebuttal above states "not liking" gay people, which is wrong - there's no reason to hate or dislike a person based off of their sexual orientation. But again, did he actually mean that, or is he just bad at word choice? Could be, but that's not for me or anybody else to judge. But for disagreeing with homosexuality? He should not have to apologize for that, nor should he have to apologize for living by Christian values (so he says - whether or not he actually does is between him and God).

I have several gay friends. I don't agree with homosexuality for several reasons, mainly my religion (Christianity), but none of those reasons are hateful. They're mature enough to accept that and we all have mutual respect for each other. I don't hate them, they're great people! And they're level headed enough to be perfectly fine with that. Does that make me an ignorant? No. Does that make me a bigot? Certainly not. Does that mean I have differing opinions on the world and the choices people make? Yes, and that's perfectly acceptable. Live and let live.

captainpicardfacepalm.jpeg

We're doing this again? I guess the last one was a whole page away...

It's not a matter of agree vs disagree. Vik didn't "disagree" with homosexuality. Vik OPPOSED homosexuality. Vik literally called homosexuals "mistakes" and stated - regardless of whether he were serious or not - that they should be charged double for his guitars just due to them being gay.

Replace the references to homosexuality with references to being black and I'm sure you'll quickly see the sheer ridiculousness. Judging any group of people due to a shared factor - skin color, religion, sexuality - is WRONG. There are literally laws about it.

He can live by whatever values he wants, but as soon as those values extend to anyone else he can't hide behind that excuse anymore.

 

[Mik3D23]

I have several gay friends. I don't agree with homosexuality for several reasons, mainly my religion (Christianity), but none of those reasons are hateful. They're mature enough to accept that and we all have mutual respect for each other. I don't hate them, they're great people! And they're level headed enough to be perfectly fine with that. Does that make me an ignorant? No. Does that make me a bigot? Certainly not. Does that mean I have differing opinions on the world and the choices people make? Yes, and that's perfectly acceptable. Live and let live.

As I have stated before in this thread, what is there to disagree with about homosexuality? I really don't understand this.

Anyway, onto the point I'm making... Sure, there are the small amount of people who truly don't like gay people. They hate them because of their sexual orientation, and that's just plain wrong. Somebody's sexual orientation is none of anyone else's business. However, I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gay people in and of themselves. But in the past year since the whole "gay rights" thing has been a huge topic (publicly, anyway), people are categorized into two groups that I've seen: those who are all about gay people and the gay lifestyle, and those who don't agree with it for whatever reason (usually religious reasoning). Those who agree with it are fine; those who don't agree with it are attacked, labeled as "ignorant bigots," hate mongers, backwoods hicks, threatened, and outright harassed.

This is very debatable. First of all, even if you're right on the "small amount" of people who don't like gays, they sure seem to cause a lot of problems for the LGBT community. Secondly, the course of history over the last few years seems to contradict this. If the majority of people are so "live and let live" about it, why are gays not allowed to get married, yet beastiality and incest-marriage is legal in many states? (But no one raises a stink about that). Marriage isn't a religious institution. Christian Marriage is a religious tradition. Just because someone gets married, doesn't mean it's a Christian marriage, otherwise why are atheists and other groups allowed to get married?

 

[Overtone]

If there's one thing worth keeping in mind from this whole thing it's this...

 

[russmuller]

His behavior over the past few months seems a lot like that of someone experiencing some kind of psychological condition. I've seen friends with drug problems go through ridiculous and embarrassing episodes struggling with addiction. I remember a while ago he was hospitalized for something (was it something with his back?). I wonder if he's all hopped up on a heavy supply of painkillers.

 

[Lord Voldemort]

So, I've just got to say this because it's been irritating me for a while...

What Vik said was dick-ish, yes. Inappropriate for the head of a business to publicly state, sure. Did he actually mean, "I hate gay people"? I doubt it; but that's the way it was worded...

Anyway, onto the point I'm making... Sure, there are the small amount of people who truly don't like gay people. They hate them because of their sexual orientation, and that's just plain wrong. Somebody's sexual orientation is none of anyone else's business. However, I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gay people in and of themselves. But in the past year since the whole "gay rights" thing has been a huge topic (publicly, anyway), people are categorized into two groups that I've seen: those who are all about gay people and the gay lifestyle, and those who don't agree with it for whatever reason (usually religious reasoning). Those who agree with it are fine; those who don't agree with it are attacked, labeled as "ignorant bigots," hate mongers, backwoods hicks, threatened, and outright harassed.

THIS is what pisses me off about this whole LBGT rights argument - either you praise, accept, condone, and promote it, or you're a hate filled bigot. There's no middle ground, which is absolutely unacceptable. You cannot go around preaching tolerance and acceptance and in the same breath condemn and attack somebody for having beliefs that differ from your own. It's hypocritical and asinine. Generally, the reason I've seen a large number of people give is that their religion is Christianity or a similar religion that doesn't condone homosexuality, and when that is said, people start hurling insults that attack both the person and their religion. In what sane way is that acceptable?

Should Vik apologize anymore than he did in the Facebook post? I think he should, but only for the wording of his statements. The way they were worded expressed a hate for people who identified as homosexuals; his rebuttal above states "not liking" gay people, which is wrong - there's no reason to hate or dislike a person based off of their sexual orientation. But again, did he actually mean that, or is he just bad at word choice? Could be, but that's not for me or anybody else to judge. But for disagreeing with homosexuality? He should not have to apologize for that, nor should he have to apologize for living by Christian values (so he says - whether or not he actually does is between him and God).

I have several gay friends. I don't agree with homosexuality for several reasons, mainly my religion (Christianity), but none of those reasons are hateful. They're mature enough to accept that and we all have mutual respect for each other. I don't hate them, they're great people! And they're level headed enough to be perfectly fine with that. Does that make me an ignorant? No. Does that make me a bigot? Certainly not. Does that mean I have differing opinions on the world and the choices people make? Yes, and that's perfectly acceptable. Live and let live.

The irritating part of this sentiment is the fact that people seem to think disliking a group of people based illogical viewpoints is somehow acceptable, let them have their opinions, it's ok!

No, it's not, and it hurts people.

 

[bulb]

I feel like I have to clear up one thing I have seen come up a few times now:

Nolly and I made official statements because we had business ties and arrangements with Vik. As representatives of his brand and product, keeping our mouths shut would only make us look like we were supporting him and his stance on the matter, and that was absolutely unacceptable to us.

To add to that, right as this started developing we were both getting a lot of personal messages and questions about the situation, because people were already concerned about where exactly we stood.

Hope that clears it up.

 

[Noxon]

18 pages later, and still no minds changed. Just two opposite points of view that will never see eye to eye. Vik is an asshole and a homophobe that has a huge ego and ridiculously overpriced guitars. We should stop talking about the guy, quit buying his guitars, and feeding into this shit. I'm sure he loves the attention. Plus, we aren't going to change him. Why are we kicking each other in the balls over a much bigger issue than SSO has the capacity to change?

 

[MBMoreno]

I feel I should add a simple quote to this.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity"

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

I feel I should add a simple quote to this.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity"

"...Unless you lose several customers and endorsers, as well as being revealed to be a terrible businessperson."

EDIT: And as said before, bad publicity did WONDERS for BRJ, S7G, Invictus, Roter, Emperon, etc.

 

[narad]

I feel I should add a simple quote to this.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity"

Yea, and Strictly7 is just brimming with orders since their incompetence came to light.

It really should not need to be pointed out that a guitar company doesn't have the same goals as Snookie or the Westboro Baptist Church, there is such a thing as bad publicity, and Vik is most certainly not enjoying the attention he's found in the past few days.

::dashes into a nearby phonebooth to discard his Captain Obvious outfit::

 

[SnowfaLL]

18 pages later, and still no minds changed. Just two opposite points of view that will never see eye to eye. Vik is an asshole and a homophobe that has a huge ego and ridiculously overpriced guitars. We should stop talking about the guy, quit buying his guitars, and feeding into this shit. I'm sure he loves the attention. Plus, we aren't going to change him. Why are we kicking each other in the balls over a much bigger issue than SSO has the capacity to change?

While I normally agree in the philosophy of ignoring people like that in life (big corporations, businesses, "celebrities"), I honestly feel in the guitar luthier buisness, their reputation is everything. The more angry threads/posts/comments coming out about ViK will show up when anyone does a search on his guitars, and hopefully it will sway people from purchasing his guitars, the same way Bernie Rico Jr's reputation collapsed after everything came out.

Any guitarist looking into a high end (3k+) custom should do their due dilligence reading reviews before ordering, so we need to get the word out there about how ViK is. We can't change his opinion or stop homophobia obviously, but putting a black label on his business that he will never be able to recover from is worth it. Anytime someone asks about his guitars, this thread + the others should be brought up. It actually benefits the customers the most, obviously he treats them like shit anyways..

 

[Toxic Dover]

Again, no one is saying you have to be for or against LGBT rights, but when you say hateful things you better be able to brave the shit storm that will come as a result of what you said. How hard is that for people who keep bringing this same point to get?

I absolutely agree in regards to the Vik situation: the things he said were written and taken, whether intentional or not, hatefully, and he should make amends for that. That's not what I'm arguing.

In a more general sense, anytime anybody expresses an opinion that deviates from the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle, regardless of how delicately that opinion is expressed, more times than not the floodgates break loose and everybody jumps on the "ignorant, hate-filled bigot" bandwagon.

captainpicardfacepalm.jpeg

We're doing this again? I guess the last one was a whole page away...

It's not a matter of agree vs disagree. Vik didn't "disagree" with homosexuality. Vik OPPOSED homosexuality. Vik literally called homosexuals "mistakes" and stated - regardless of whether he were serious or not - that they should be charged double for his guitars just due to them being gay.

Replace the references to homosexuality with references to being black and I'm sure you'll quickly see the sheer ridiculousness. Judging any group of people due to a shared factor - skin color, religion, sexuality - is WRONG. There are literally laws about it.

He can live by whatever values he wants, but as soon as those values extend to anyone else he can't hide behind that excuse anymore.

Forgive me, I didn't feel like reading through 18 pages of this.

Vik (or anybody for that matter) calling a human being a mistake because of a viewpoint is wrong, no question. Judging groups of people (PEOPLE THEMSELVES, not their life choices) is wrong, no question. My post was a bit more general in nature as opposed to a direct reflection upon the Vik drama; any person with a belief or disagreement with homosexuality in general is damned. It doesn't matter how much they emphasize that they do not hate the person, the group of people, whatever; just because they don't openly accept and condone a lifestyle decision, they're labeled because of it, and that's absolutely a double standard.

As I have stated before in this thread, what is there to disagree with about homosexuality? I really don't understand this.

This is very debatable. First of all, even if you're right on the "small amount" of people who don't like gays, they sure seem to cause a lot of problems for the LGBT community. Secondly, the course of history over the last few years seems to contradict this. If the majority of people are so "live and let live" about it, why are gays not allowed to get married, yet beastiality and incest-marriage is legal in many states? (But no one raises a stink about that). Marriage isn't a religious institution. Christian Marriage is a religious tradition. Just because someone gets married, doesn't mean it's a Christian marriage, otherwise why are atheists and other groups allowed to get married?

I can't answer about the bestiality and incestuous marriage, but I think it's appalling to say the least. It's also debatable (or at the very least a matter of opinion) on whether or not marriage is a religious institution by origin or not. If you're an atheist, agnostic, or whatever else, of course you're not going to see it as a religious institution. If you do subscribe to one of the many religious beliefs that hold it as some sort of a sacred bond, then you will view it as a religious institution.

By definition, the term "marriage" has for years meant the union between one man and one woman. Just speaking for the United States, when over 3/4 of your population identifies as Christian or some flavor thereof (Catholic, Mormon, etc.), you're stepping on a lot of people's toes by trying to alter that.

The irritating part of this sentiment is the fact that people seem to think disliking a group of people based illogical viewpoints is somehow acceptable, let them have their opinions, it's ok!

No, it's not, and it hurts people.

That's not what I said. Judging people is wrong. Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices is another story, and it "hurts" nobody. If somebody can't handle the fact that their beliefs and choices aren't going to be accepted and condoned by every other person on this planet, then I don't see how they can make it through life.

 

[asher]

Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

Yeah, once people imply that gayness is a choice, their argument is moot, IMO.

I never chose to be gay. Other bi/gay people here most likely never chose to be gay, either.

 

[Promit]

In a more general sense, anytime anybody expresses an opinion that deviates from the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle, regardless of how delicately that opinion is expressed, more times than not the floodgates break loose and everybody jumps on the "ignorant, hate-filled bigot" bandwagon.

It doesn't matter how much they emphasize that they do not hate the person, the group of people, whatever; just because they don't openly accept and condone a lifestyle decision, they're labeled because of it, and that's absolutely a double standard.

Unfortunately, you have just stepped in it. With both feet. Knee deep.

Just to emphasize, the current understanding shared among most here and most who accept homosexuality is that it is NOT in the general case a choice, or a lifestyle. No more than being a woman or black or short or whatever. Just as you most likely did not choose to be heterosexual, those people did not choose to be homosexual. At best you're saying -- and I know there are many Christians who say this -- that even if homosexuality is a God given born in trait, they should simply suppress it and not follow "the lifestyle". So apparently God loves gay people, but they're not allowed to have love or happiness or companionship. How very compassionate of them.

You DID, however, choose to be Christian and to follow a particular set of beliefs that create a certain morality. I think you should reflect on why you made that choice.

 

[JohnIce]

Forgive me, I didn't feel like reading through 18 pages of this.

If it matters to you enough to post about it, maybe you should have. Skipping a discussion just to voice your own opinion is commonly known as ignorance. The textbook variety.

Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices

See asher's post. They're not choices, mate. They're not. Disagreeing with homosexuality is like disagreeing with, I don't know, freckles. Or baldness.

 

[stevexc]

I feel I should add a simple quote to this.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity"

"...Unless you lose several customers and endorsers, as well as being revealed to be a terrible businessperson."

EDIT: And as said before, bad publicity did WONDERS for BRJ, S7G, Invictus, Roter, Emperon, etc.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one, JazzHands. Vik's gonna keep making guitars and keep getting orders. People are unfortunately going to be attracted his viewpoint, plus when it comes to the (admittedly few) guitars he actually finishes they are of a much higher caliber than what those guys were putting out. I missed most of what happened with the last few names, but BRJ had a MASSIVE drop in quality followed by completely cutting off everybody.

It wasn't just the bad publicity that killed the other guys.

But perhaps since he is on the smaller side and is losing the few high-profile endorsees he had, it might be enough...

 

[russmuller]

You DID, however, choose to be Christian and to follow a particular set of beliefs that create a certain morality. I think you should reflect on why you made that choice.

^

Nobody is born a Christian.

 

[HighGain510]

Not sure this is worth destroying someones business over.

As I pointed out in the other thread, his bad business decisions and actions towards current customers were already doing a pretty good job at destroying his business to begin with if you want to try to act like this wasn't something that should count against the business side of things.

 

[Chokey Chicken]

18 pages later, and still no minds changed. Just two opposite points of view that will never see eye to eye. Vik is an asshole and a homophobe that has a huge ego and ridiculously overpriced guitars. We should stop talking about the guy, quit buying his guitars, and feeding into this shit. I'm sure he loves the attention. Plus, we aren't going to change him. Why are we kicking each other in the balls over a much bigger issue than SSO has the capacity to change?

This will be my last contribution to the thread. At this point, I don't think there really is much reason to talk about it, but I'll gladly support people who keep the awareness raised. We talk about it not to change his mind, though if we did that'd be great, but to raise awareness. Awareness that if you give this man your money, you are giving a bigot money. Someone who votes powers into office, powers that actively make some peoples lives difficult. Someone who perpetuates and helps normalize hate. I would be very unhappy if I have a guy money, which he turned out to use to buy a bat to beat me or people like me. (Hopefully you understand my point. It doesn't have to be a literal beating, it can be figurative.)

Anyway, anyone who needs to know likely does know now. People can now make educated choices, and in the future if anyone asks what Vik is like because they're considering a guitar, we can spread the knowledge. Big names have cut ties, which is great because people who want to emulate them won't find themselves down this path.

My final final statement is to say the most sincere "thank you" to everyone who is showing amazing support. When I get to a computer, I'll be sure to hand out a bit of rep (no neg rep,) tosome of the folks who spent time speaking up for people like me. It's not a perfect world, in fact it's far from it, but people like you guys make it a whole hell of a lot better than it was even five years ago. Thanks again, and keep doing what you do!