Vik Drama: Round 3

[jay moth]

On Clapton, straight from Wikipedia, as that's first link in Google:

Clapton told the crowd that England had "become overcrowded" and that they should vote for Powell to stop Britain from becoming "a black colony". He also told the audience that Britain should "get the foreigners out, get the wogs out, get the coons out", and then he repeatedly shouted the National Front slogan "Keep Britain White".

Rock Against Racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a well known fact. Not even starting on Jimmy Page and 14yr old Lori Maddox.

But don't come in here and tell me, or any of the rest of us, how to act.

...While I'll tell everyone not to tolerate Vik. Sure.

I'm not telling You what to do, I'm just wondering why You're acting so over the top. Seriously, I'm just curious how You'll stand against different opinion. So far I'm not getting any good responses apart from "read the whole thread". I did already. It was boring, but I did. And I see mostly a lot of overreactions from every side of the... "conflict".

 

[flint757]

So you believe someone extorting another person to be 'no big deal' then? Whether or not he is a good guitar builder, supporting someone via likes, attention, money, etc. gives credence to his ideas and his business practices, which are both terrible.

You should read the Vik Guitar Discussion thread as well as it will shed a light for you on his poor business practices even prior to the current drama. The thread is called round 3 for a reason after all. He is a shitty business man at his core and that has been going on for a lot longer than this debacle.

 

[jay moth]

So you believe someone extorting another person to be 'no big deal' then?

That's exactly my point of view. As long, as You're not doing anything illegal, You can hate whoever You want for any reasons. And frankly, most of musicians said something stupid at least once in their lifetimes, especially those from metal genre, and while I don't agree with them, I still like their music. And a quick question for those, who suddenly aren't even going to touch anything Vik-made - have You got anything from Apple? Have You seen their factories? I can understand not buying something, because of ideologic reasons, but Vik did less "evil things" than Apple... Just saying.

He is a shitty business man at his core and that has been going on for a lot longer than this debacle.

Have You read my posts? A page ago I wrote more or less the same sentence.

 

[Hollowway]

On Clapton, straight from Wikipedia, as that's first link in Google:

Rock Against Racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a well known fact. Not even starting on Jimmy Page and 14yr old Lori Maddox.


...While I'll tell everyone not to tolerate Vik. Sure.

I'm not telling You what to do, I'm just wondering why You're acting so over the top. Seriously, I'm just curious how You'll stand against different opinion. So far I'm not getting any good responses apart from "read the whole thread". I did already. It was boring, but I did. And I see mostly a lot of overreactions from every side of the... "conflict".

Well, you're saying I am (we are) overreacting. I don't think I'm overreacting. I think I'm reacting just the right amount. You're welcome to criticize me for acting the way I am, but that sort of means you have to let me criticize Vik for acting the way he is.

And I'm surprised about Clapton. I didn't know that. I knew I didn't like that honky for some reason anyway.

I'll also say that if this were the only offense Vik made, I doubt there would be nearly the dust up there has been. The guy had already proven himself to be a colossal ass, and this just was the icing on the cake. If he had made a sincere apology, or was an otherwise good example of character, I doubt there would be so much discussion on the topic. There are those of us that have a huge problem with his homophobia, those of us that have a huge problem for the way he treats his customers, and those of us that have a huge problem with both. That's enough to get a lot of people talking about it.

 

[jay moth]

I'm totally ok with everyone who has to critisise Vik. My point is, hate towards him is exactly the same, as his hate towards gay people.

In the end, if someone is wishing him all the worst, it is also not my thing. But that won't stop me from questioning someones point of view. I'm not telling You to love him, I'm just asking You why Your replies are like that, and expecting classy answers. This is how discussion works. What I'm poining my finger at now, is lack of class on both ends, Vik being unproffessional, and "rest of the world" being "united against intolerance".

Ok, to continue a list of homophobes, Faust from Emperor (a band, that gets a lot of love in here) stabbed a homosexual 37 times. He spent over 9 years in prison because of that event. And yet, Emperor is good, and Vik is not. Puzzling.

 

[flint757]

That's exactly my point of view. As long, as You're not doing anything illegal, You can hate whoever You want for any reasons. And frankly, most of musicians said something stupid at least once in their lifetimes, especially those from metal genre, and while I don't agree with them, I still like their music. And a quick question for those, who suddenly aren't even going to touch anything Vik-made - have You got anything from Apple? Have You seen their factories? I can understand not buying something, because of ideologic reasons, but Vik did less "evil things" than Apple... Just saying.



Have You read my posts? A page ago I wrote more or less the same sentence.

Apple is hardly relevant to the discussion. In any case, I don't own any apple products so you aren't making much of a point in regards to myself. One does not nullify the other anyhow. I think we can show an equal amount of effort for both without having to not participate in one or the other. We are not binary thinkers. We can champion more than one cause at a time.

I probably did read your post awhile back. Holloway stated it pretty well. This is just icing on the cake and I personally don't support businesses that are hateful towards people I care about or are actively trying to harm them socially, mentally or physically. I haven't eaten at Chick Fil-A for instance since I found out the owner uses the profits for his charities which lobby against gay people.

 

[flint757]

Ok, to continue a list of homophobes, Faust from Emperor (a band, that gets a lot of love in here) stabbed a homosexual 37 times. He spent over 9 years in prison because of that event. And yet, Emperor is good, and Vik is not. Puzzling.

Who in here has stated that?

Oh that's right, no one.

 

[jay moth]

Well, a lot of people seemed to be excited about Emperor's reunion. Interestingly enough, with Faust, not Trym behind drumset.

 

[goherpsNderp]

as for why it matters to some of us whether or not a guitar luthier/vendor has views that we find offensive and how that ties into doing business with him or not, it's pretty simple:

i want my dollars to benefit people and businesses that respect human rights and equality. if i continue doing business with a company that comes out as being against human rights and equality, then there would be no negative financial impact on them to serve as a repercussion for their aforementioned stance.

it's called voting with your wallet. if suddenly tons of people stopped going to Hobby Lobby and went to Michael's instead, you'd see HL losing money on their financial reports starting around the time they opened their big dumb mouths, and Michael's (who in this analogy would be all for human rights and equality, etc.) would see a sudden increase in sales and financial support from their patrons.

at this point HL would have a choice between fixing their finances by apologizing and giving up their fight against covering healthcare for their female workers, or doubling down and continuing to see their sales nosedive. they'd understand that the way they treat people and employees (with respect and dignity) is actually rewarding. the more people in the world that are rewarded for being good to one another, the less reason anyone has for being prejudice and hateful.

i'd like for their to be less hateful people, and for their to be more respectful compassionate people. so i'm going to vote with my dollars and reward those that are awesome. EDIT: other people will do the same and support companies like Vik or HL because they happen to agree with their stances, and that's completely fine. i'm just trying to explain the rationale of those of us who prioritize spreading love and acceptance over the quality of a purchased good.

 

[stevexc]

Well, a lot of people seemed to be excited about Emperor's reunion. Interestingly enough, with Faust, not Trym behind drumset.

A) You could at least try to keep things on topic
B) most people are excited because they're fans of Ihsahn or are unaware of Faust's issues
C) from all accounts I've seen the victim's homosexuality was coincidental (albeit used to Faust's advantage), see Paragraph 2, sentence 2 of the relevant section
D) Emperor never used the murder as part of their publicity or in other band business whereas Vik involved his personal prejudices in his
E) What is the link between "people who agree Vik is a homophobe" and "people who are excited for Emperor's reunion"? It seems like you're imagining a correlation that doesn't necessarily exist.

 

[Whammy]

i'd like for their to be less hateful people, and for their to be more respectful compassionate people. so i'm going to vote with my dollars and reward those that are awesome.

This is also my philosophy. But unfortunately in the real world it rarely accomplishes anything

Vik Guitars facebook page has just as many followers as ever. Recent pictures of guitars (including Misha's guitar) are being commenting on and liked by people who populate this forum.
The list of guitars being built for people by Vik include some well know people on this forum too.

There is a lot of debate here about not tolerating intolerant people which is good. But the general mass (the world that exists outside of SSO) are fickle and at the end of the day will probably succumb to pretty picture of guitars.

I'm not saying to stop debating or to stop voting with your money. In fact I encourage it.
I'm just merely stating would could possibility be the sad truth at the end of the day.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Goddamnit, the word 'you' doesn't require a capital Y unless you're starting a sentence with it.

The world is growing up and beginning to pull it's collective head out of it's collective ass. This is why people are having such a problem with this. Even if the guy delivered his product in a timely manner, I'd still boycott his guitars based off his words. Doesn't mean I 'hate' the guy or want to see him hurt, but I'm sure as hell not going to give any positive support to someone with such a backwards outlook on the world.

 

[jay moth]

What is the link between "people who agree Vik is a homophobe" and "people who are excited for Emperor's reunion"? It seems like you're imagining a correlation that doesn't necessarily exist.

Seeing a bigger picture. I have to admit, it's slightly off-topic, but I don't get people, who are so offended by Vik right now, and those who were so against Disma and that other band, where one of the member was accused of being nazi, while not being offended by the fact that Faust killed a guy, who, as You've stated it, he just coincidentally was gay. Double standards?

Goddamnit, the word 'you' doesn't require a capital Y unless you're starting a sentence with it.

I know. Just a matter of respect. Call me weird, but since names are starting with capital letters, word "You" also should. Not trying to reinvent grammar, just it seems fitting...

 

[flint757]

There is a lot of debate here about not tolerating intolerant people which is good. But the general mass (the world that exists outside of SSO) are fickle and at the end of the day will probably succumb to pretty picture of guitars.

I'm not saying to stop debating or to stop voting with your money. In fact I encourage it.

That's partly why I'm still participating in the conversation. I know for the majority of fickle folk out there that the moment this gets buried people will just forget all about it. If we continue discussing it more people are aware and can make their decision accordingly.

As far as guitar luthiers go, this is why I feel like there needs to be a database of luthiers with their reputations, customer service and product quality written in a concise manner. That way everyone can make an informed decision and the information is readily available in an easy to digest format.

 

[Explorer]

I'm totally ok with everyone who has to critisise Vik. My point is, hate towards him is exactly the same, as his hate towards gay people.

To point out the obvious, which a Londoner might not be historically aware of:

The Nazis were bigots.

England was intolerant of that bigotry.

Bigotry is intolerance, but intolerance of bigotry is not bigotry.

You might want to do some reading, if you seriously think that Britain and Nazi Germany were ideologically the same.

And if you feel that bigotry and intolerance of bigotry are not the same... why are you saying they are?

That would be stupid, which is why I'm assuming you don't know about WWII.

Quite a spirited defense of that kind of thinking, incidentally.

----

I especially like the "Well, this other person is a dick too, so what?" defense. It would be like arguing that Nazis had death camps, the Russians had gulags, and so the Poles and their allies should have no complaints.

No one should be that clueless.

Again, sorry to make historic references which you aren't aware of.

 

[Hollowway]

Seeing a bigger picture. I have to admit, it's slightly off-topic, but I don't get people, who are so offended by Vik right now, and those who were so against Disma and that other band, where one of the member was accused of being nazi, while not being offended by the fact that Faust killed a guy, who, as You've stated it, he just coincidentally was gay. Double standards?

Who are you referring to? I'm not aware of anyone on here that is a fan of Faust and against Vik. If you can point out who you are talking about, then we can ask them why they have the double standard. Otherwise you can't say there's a double standard between group A, who believes one thing, and group B, who believes another, if there are no shared members. It could also be straw-man, but I don't think that's what you're going for.

And, for the record, I stopped talking about my feelings about Vik being a jerk several pages ago. The last bunch of posts are me responding to people telling me that I shouldn't care about it, or that my caring won't help, etc. For Pete's sake, if I come in and start railing on Lucas Mann's (Rings of Saturn) guitar playthough shenanigans no one cares, but I call out Vik for being a jerk and people like you start in with, "hey man, stop talking about it. Talking about it won't help. If you dislike him then you're not a tolerant Christian."

 

[spawnofthesith]

What really sucks is that it's looking like Vik ' s business probably isn't going to be all that damaged by this. But when people get excessively butthurt over a mildly tasteless (but accurate) comment about Jim Marshall and Emperor cabs is all but defunct now.

Human beings are ....ing morons.

 

[UnderTheSign]

My point is, hate towards him is exactly the same, as his hate towards gay people.

Disliking someone for a conscious choice they made vs disliking people based on the way they were born.

See, that's where you're wrong.

 

[BlackMastodon]

What really sucks is that it's looking like Vik ' s business probably isn't going to be all that damaged by this. But when people get excessively butthurt over a mildly tasteless (but accurate) comment about Jim Marshall and Emperor cabs is all but defunct now.

Human beings are ....ing morons.

I wouldn't say that. Do a Google search of 'Vik Guitars' and the front page has all of the articles pointing out his homophobia. If it stays that way then there's a good chance that people won't want to order in the future. This isn't going to die with a bang, it'll take time for people to stop putting in orders, if not because of this then because of all of his other shit-tastic business practices.

Also,people really need to f**k off with this "being intolerant of him is the same as him being intolerant as gays" nonsense. That's complete and utter bullshit and if you have more than 7 brain cells you should be able to see that.

 

[GunpointMetal]

If you guys stop, he'll eventually talk himself out of whatever asinine double standard argument he's pushing here....

If you openly dislike gay people, you can sure do that. I'm not gonna buy your stuff, and if anyone asks me about it I'll say "Don't buy stuff from that bigot asshole."

Yes, I feel having the opinion that there is anything wrong with another person for race, sexual preference, or gender makes the person with the opinion AN ASSHOLE.