Vik Guitars Discussion

[carpone]

i agree with everything you said expect that piece. dude is absolutely dicking around his customers and lies to them and there is tons of evidence to support that but i still enjoy watching him continue to work and see what he does with his builds, i just wont conduct business with the man again.

That is understandable especially when customer service is crucial to be the best above all of the rest. I can speak of this for America since I really don't know how the rest of the world has high value in customer service. I do know many people have strengths and weaknesses. It would help Vik if he had a someone to handle this part of the business while he builds. Just my opinion though and I hope it all works out for him.

On other note I would enter the contest if I wanted a Vik really bad. There are a lot of talented players that would blow me away though....haha. Plus I already own a Vik and would like to see someone else be able to enjoy it

 

[Watty]

I will continue to have respect for those with different sex, religion, and political beliefs. I will continue to admire and respect Vik due to know for a fact he is not screwing anyone over. He is just an underdog wanting to step in and play with the big dogs just having growing pains to get there. Does it mean I hate the LGBT community? Um..no I have many friends that are LGBT and would laugh. I just think all on this is non-sense and that is my two cents. Main point is I will never follow something that I know the truth about because it is uncool to believe in the truth.

1) He has screwed multiple people over lately, customers large and small...read back through this thread if you require more proof.

2) Referring to a situation such as this as "growing pains" is a bit of a misrepresentation of the issue at hand. If the CEO of a company came out and publicly insulted a large (let alone socially charged) group of people for no good reason, I'd imagine the last phrase used to describe what followed would be "growing pains."

3) It doesn't mean you hate the LGBT community, but it does mean you're willing to "admire and respect" someone who would see them shunned and made second class citizens all because he knows how to glue together wood with proficiency.

3.5) The issue is not that he has an unpopular view, the issue is that he has an unpopular view that has absolutely no grounding in any sound rationale.

4) The "I have a friend who is _____" excuse is tired and provides no actual justification for a given position, especially when it appears to have no bearing on why you're they're friend. When you say this, it's almost like you're insinuating you keep them around precisely because they're [gay] and they provide the justification buffer for this sort of rhetoric.

5) Your last sentence (while poorly worded) is precisely the reason why we have so much crap going on in the world today...people claiming to know the truth and acting in accordance with the given belief to a conclusion that benefits no one. Granted believing Vik is a great guy who treats his customers well is by no means as bad as, say, denying global climate change, but if you hold that mentality with regards to the former, there's a chance you could easily see fit to apply it to the latter.

 

[Danukenator]

4) The "I have a friend who is _____" excuse is tired and provides no actual justification for a given position, especially when it appears to have no bearing on why you're they're friend. When you say this, it's almost like you're insinuating you keep them around precisely because they're [gay] and they provide the justification buffer for this sort of rhetoric.

He wasn't using his friends as a buffer or justification for his argument. At all.

At best he was trying to indicate he holds a different view then others in this thread but, at the same time, doesn't share ViK's ignorant beliefs. It's insulting to turn around, after distorting what they said, to guilt them by implying they were using their friends identity to intentionally support an bad argument.

 

[carpone]

Oh I knew ol Watty was going to come in with his arguments. Now it is a choice of mine to now defend myself or get busy with other things that I should be doing rather than this whole internet world of proving ones identity.

1) I wasn't screwed over I had a good experience with Vik. I simply ordered forgot and let the guitar build itself.

2) "growing pains" not even going to waste my time with this. You fail, learn, hopefully correct, and life goes on.

3) Judge as you will as if you know me.

4) Lets see here justify my friends to you. Roommate who was gay, former soldiers in the war fighting for each others life who was gay/lesbian. Old girlfriend who was bi who was a huge part of my life...need I say more to prove my self to you Sir?

5) Will gladly sit down, drink some milk, and have a conversation anytime about philosophy of life existence that would spend hours and probably become friends as an end result.

Now time for me to go enjoy a sushi dinner as my girlfriend tells me I am completely wasting my time on this forum..haha Hint I have been a member since 2007 and what 27 comments or something. With that being said, enjoy and have a good one.

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

So you think he isn't screwing others over just because he isn't screwing you over? Sounds like denial to me.

 

[Watty]

He wasn't using his friends as a buffer or justification for his argument. At all.

At best he was trying to indicate he holds a different view then others in this thread but, at the same time, doesn't share ViK's ignorant beliefs. It's insulting to turn around, after distorting what they said, to guilt them by implying they were using their friends identity to intentionally support an bad argument.

Notice how I never said that he did it, only that it was insinuated with the tactic on the whole. That's the only context it's ever used in, comically or no. That said, I don't think it was too far-fetched to mention it, regardless of whether it was directed at him in a negative way or no.

Oh I knew ol Watty was going to come in with his arguments. Now it is a choice of mine to now defend myself or get busy with other things that I should be doing rather than this whole internet world of proving ones identity.

1) I wasn't screwed over I had a good experience with Vik. I simply ordered forgot and let the guitar build itself.

2) "growing pains" not even going to waste my time with this. You fail, learn, hopefully correct, and life goes on.

3) Judge as you will as if you know me.

4) Lets see here justify my friends to you. Roommate who was gay, former soldiers in the war fighting for each others life who was gay/lesbian. Old girlfriend who was bi who was a huge part of my life...need I say more to prove my self to you Sir?

5) Will gladly sit down, drink some milk, and have a conversation anytime about philosophy of life existence that would spend hours and probably become friends as an end result.

1) See HHTJH's comment below.
2) That's still sweeping his actions under the proverbial rug. He needlessly aggravated a large number of people (as he should have known would happen) for no reason and proceeded to carry that comment into his professional realm.
3) I simply repeated what you said in context?
4) Again, not directly saying that's what your intent was, only that it happens to be the common connotation associated with that unfortunate phrase. And I should think that if they mattered that much to you, respecting and admiring individuals who would demean them because of their sexual preference wouldn't be high on your list of priorities?
5) Might be the case, but I'll take an ice water over milk...

So you think he isn't screwing others over just because he isn't screwing you over? Sounds like denial to me.

+1

 

[theoctopus]

I don't know why we're still having this conversation. Vik is a homophobe. In other news, the sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.

I'm with narad. Vik is entirely unpredictable. It's definitely possible that he could produce this guitar given that there's so much attention on it, though I have a feeling there would be a shakedown or two along the way for a little money to cover expenses.

I think he's an idiot for coming to NAMM. I can't believe he's even considering it. He should just lay low and keep making guitars.

 

[Hollowway]

Irrespective of what Vik believes or does not believe, he has, on several occasions, not held up his end of his contract with paying customers. And he hasn't done it because he was falling behind. He did it because he didn't share the views those customers had, or had ther orders he wanted to focus on, or who knows what other reasons. Those aren't "growing pains." Growing pains are when you screw up despite trying to do good because you are growing faster than your infrastructure/business/logistics can keep up. That has not been a problem with Vik. Vik's problem is Vik. I will not order from someone who doesn't have the basic business ethics to feel obligated to make a genuine effort to deliver my guitar as promised. Do I wish him well? I wish he would get his head screwed on right and start running his business with the same talent and passion he builds guitars with. I mean, with so many other talented luthiers, who are not unpredictable assholes, why would you bother?

 

[Jonathan20022]

Lose/Lose situation for him right now.

If he builds it, he's shafting his customer base even more. Not that they're not used to it at this point to some extent. And if he doesn't, he'll make even more of an ass of himself and he'll add yet another individual to the list of "customers".

Misha put it very well, "I told him that my morals and ethics are worth more than a guitar."

I honestly don't want anything to do with the guy, even joked around with a friend about covering some Cynic on a headless guitar and submitting it to .... with him. But what's the point? Feeding that fire is only going to support him in one way or another. I also don't want to associate with anything in relation to him because, not only do I support LGBT rights. But I've seen first hand the kind of strife that a person goes through and someone has in my own family and the kind of hateful religious scorn that Vik is hiding behind. I'm very much a part of my own faith, but the need to respect someone is just as important to me ESPECIALLY family.

 

[narad]

Misha put it very well, "I told him that my morals and ethics are worth more than a guitar."

 

[Fred the Shred]

Misha will have his own views and stance, so will Nolly, and pretty much every individual that isn't a sheep and requires a horde of similar opinions to validate his course of action, and to be completely honest, the influential position of the artist is of no relevance for the validity of his opinion when it comes to discussing matters.

Assuming this predicate, we can easily see why they jumped ship, as would most people with business interests involved: even if they were raging homophobes themselves (knowing the guys, not happening ever, but needed to get that out of the way for the sake of example ), nobody wants an absolute PR disaster in their list of endorsements which, whether you want it or not, can easily screw your own PR side of things. "Screwed customers" and "random pointless homophobic remarks" fit my ideal of "PR disaster" very nicely, I'd say.

I'm still getting my Vik. I am not endorsing any of his views and, should I be in the endorsement market for guitars (which as you know, isn't really the case), I wouldn't take an endorsement deal until I had nice solid proof of the wrong being corrected, and even then, after assessing the current state of affairs with the whole thing.

A plank with strings isn't a symbol of discrimination unless we make it so - it can be a symbol of a paying customer getting shafted horribly, however, and that's my biggest gripe with the whole situation right now.

 

[Watty]

Fred, I can respect what you're saying, but the extent to which there's a line across which you wouldn't feel comfortable going (in terms of consumer-driven support) is the extent to which your argument will fall short. (i.e unless you'd be willing to argue in the same way for any sort of opinion a given person might hold, it is somewhat intellectually dishonest to do so here).

That aside, you basically insinuated that Misha and Nolly (the latter to a greater extent) were more worried about potential guilt by association than their moral objections to what Vik said. Barring that fact that there's absolutely no way for you to know that, I don't see it as particularly productive to use that as the basis for explaining away certain aspects of the situation.

You're allowed to buy a guitar from him and not support his views, but being publicly vocal about trying to separate each aspect of your interaction with him is starting to make it look like Leo's path is the way forward for current customers. And, while I'm not 100% certain, I'd imagine that's not the route you'd want to take...

 

[TemjinStrife]

I will continue to admire and respect Vik due to know for a fact he is not screwing anyone over.

Quoting self for emphasis, 20 pages of this thread earlier:

Have you read this thread?

- He brought a customer's guitar to NAMM without receiving or even asking permission, and the customer didn't even know until someone spotted it at NAMM. IIRC, the customer still hasn't received the guitar (although that has been blamed on a faulty Graphtech piezo setup).

- He unilaterally canceled customer orders when they publicly complained about delays measured in years then took his sweet time in refunding the money.

- He has customers whose builds have been in waiting for years while orders placed later have been expedited and delivered complete.

- He has completed and auctioned off "rush builds" for significant sums of money while allowing the aforementioned customer builds to languish.

If anyone wonders why I'm so involved in this thread, this is why. We've got all the warning flags of a small builder fucking his customers PLUS a few new ones, all while prices are climbing.

And even more frustratingly, while these issues are known, they've only started to come out recently. Worryingly, it took a hateful, homophobic comment to cause his endorsers to publicly leave, rather than his known, years-long history of sketchy business practices.

 

[Fred the Shred]

Fred, I can respect what you're saying, but the extent to which there's a line across which you wouldn't feel comfortable going (in terms of consumer-driven support) is the extent to which your argument will fall short. (i.e unless you'd be willing to argue in the same way for any sort of opinion a given person might hold, it is somewhat intellectually dishonest to do so here).

That aside, you basically insinuated that Misha and Nolly (the latter to a greater extent) were more worried about potential guilt by association than their moral objections to what Vik said. Barring that fact that there's absolutely no way for you to know that, I don't see it as particularly productive to use that as the basis for explaining away certain aspects of the situation.

You're allowed to buy a guitar from him and not support his views, but being publicly vocal about trying to separate each aspect of your interaction with him is starting to make it look like Leo's path is the way forward for current customers. And, while I'm not 100% certain, I'd imagine that's not the route you'd want to take...

You infer things incorrectly, I have to say. What I have done is to immediately make the disambiguation between social posture and business decision. I named those two for a simple reason: they are very well known and generally outspoken people in this community, and while I don't doubt their morality being the definitive driving force, I prefer to focus on the business side of things, which is not meant to defend Vik in the slightest, but rather to demonstrate far graver implications of his actions when it comes to official partnerships. If I was to sum up that part in typical tl;dr fashion, it would be as simple as "it's a dreadful business and PR decision to be associated with the brand at this point".

I am not entirely sure as to how acquainted you are with my typical stance here or in social media and whatnot (i.e. not as if you're obligated to know the first thing about me), but I don't insinuate. If I have the basis for an affirmation, I will say so quite clearly. Again, the purpose of the example was to extract the morality of Misha and Nolly's decision and leave just cold, harsh business reality in, and guess what? Even if you were a raging homophobe, should you be considering a business partnership with Vik Guitars, it would still be incredibly risky to do so - failed order deliveries, unpredictable behaviour, haphazard positioning in social networks and not one hint of retraction when the proverbial feces hit the fan, you name it!

Thing is that I strongly believe there is a place for opinion as a guide - reliability, factual instrument reviews, contact with the company, all of these are excellent indicators of what to expect, and the better known as a reference the person speaking / writing is, the better are your chances of said review being a solid guide of what to expect. Endorsements would be pointless if not so, and so would gear reviews as a whole.

When it comes to the expression of subjective matters such as moral stance, they do hold some weight, but surely you can't expect to grow as a person if your moral stance, rather than being a consequence of a series of factors resulting in one's personal growth, ends up being a fickle "because [insert role model] said so", and I'm sure you agree.

Ultimately, this was more of a call for attention to the facts that permeate the web, especially this very thread, pertaining Vik's activities providing more than enough foundation for one's decisions and views, with clear as water detail, and with far more importance and weight than one's role model's (no matter how commendable) stance.

I separate "get guitar" from "being associated with", as the latter precludes a commercial agreement beyond "buying a guitar" and, whether one likes it or not, implicit support for the company's ethos, not just the product. For obvious reasons, as a guy that abhors seeing people seeing their hard earned money being lost in the aether and a human rights activist, I can't possibly embark on a business association. That in itself doesn't remove the tangible quality or performance from the instrument, not to mention I do have a twisted sense of humour so I'm sure the opportunity will come for me to use it in fabulous ways, darling.

 

[TemjinStrife]

A plank with strings isn't a symbol of discrimination unless we make it so - it can be a symbol of a paying customer getting shafted horribly, however, and that's my biggest gripe with the whole situation right now.

There's probably a good argument that such a plank with strings has already been made a "symbol of discrimination," although certainly it's up to you to decide how you want to treat it.

However, I would *definitely* say that said planks are a symbol of (multiple) paying customers getting shafted horribly. As someone who undoubtedly influences customer buying decisions, and especially the buying decisions of your fans, are you comfortable with even a passing association with the brand, given the business practices associated with it?

Keep in mind that while you may not be an "endorser," saying "guys, I got this guitar, and it's incredible" is at least a tacit endorsement (in the actual meaning of the word, rather than the business relationship) and encouragement to purchase.

 

[Fred the Shred]

As stated above, I have some interesting plans for it aside from its use as a recording instrument in my collection. Had I signed to be an actual endorser, exclusivity or not, it would be a different story altogether due to the other implications of such a connection.

The shafting bit is, I must say, the one that annoys me. As far as I'm concerned, it may be ready when it was supposed to (which is in itself a circa 10 month delay in relation to the initially projected date), and let's hope it is the case, or it may not, in which case I will be one more name in the list.

Be it as it may, whatever influence I may have on buyers has been exerted in this case most vehemently: he makes some fantastic instruments, but ordering now is a bad move - until we see the backlog getting cleaned up nicely, it's way too risky. I have provided this answer many times, and it will remain that way until the situation changes in a drastic and verifiable way when it comes to satisfying years old customer orders.

So yes, the statement "I got this guitar and it's fantastic" is likely to be true, but incomplete. It's more likely to be along the lines of "I got this guitar and it's fantastic, but wait for the backlog to clear before placing an order as there are builds with years of delay on them and, though - the hordes of pissed off customers don't lie".

Many people in companies have morally horrible views. Some in more prominent places than others when it comes to public exposure of such opinions, but that is hindering their business in any way. What I find odd is, just like you said, it took a hateful homophobic remark for stuff to come to light.

tl;dr - I am not defending Vik Guitars, I am actually stepping up to say the actions are not acceptable, and they have tangible consequences on people's wallets.

 

[carpone]

All of you have valid points with this whole entire situation. Point blank is the guitars are amazing yet the public relations/customer service is not good. When making a purchase it is about the whole experience not just the product itself. People wants trust, commitment, and quality not just of the product but also who they hired. Because technically the customer is hiring you; therefore the customer has highest priority to make happy even more so than the boss in my opinion. This is how business generates. Satisfaction brings loyal customers and referrals from those happy customers. This is primarily how business works in the USA however and I am not educated enough to understand the value of customers in other countries because I do not live there. As every place is different and has its culture. Not saying one is right and other is wrong, just different.

I can say I am in denial a bit and I apologize that many feel cheated, tossed under the rug, and so forth. My experience was different and pleasant just as everyones should equally be. I do truly love my saviour guitar, not just like but love it. I get a more personal relationship with guitars I own as I love guitars and music as a whole. As a tradesman I understand when things are built with passion vs just thrown together. I do think Vik bit off a little more than he can chew. But he is chewing it every little bite. His level of quality takes time and having a back log only makes it stressful for both the party and the builder.

I honestly hope it turns around and gets better of all. At this point all we can do is hope for the best.

 

[Fred the Shred]

The whole experience part is crucial indeed. Perhaps many can endure a less than smooth experience when the product is fantastic and find solace in getting a true premium instrument, but the major point here is the journey of suffering quite a few customers go through.

My #1 in terms of delay time was KxK, and while a stellar builder and polite gentleman, Rob isn't exactly the supreme master of updates or email communication at all, as many will know. My scale 7 arrived, if memory serves me right, 2 years after the order and deposit took place, approximately. What didn't happen here in comparison, seeing stock guitars being sold and whatnot, is that he had the decency of not bs'ing me. No sporadic emails stating it was in the paint booth for 5 years, no unbelievable back and forth states of completion, no bogus deadlines, no "I'm waiting for hardcases", just factual information pertaining when she was ready to go, payment details and address requested. Was it ready in the projected date? Nope, not by a long shot. Did I see a bunch of stockers going out the door while I was waiting for a good while? Yeah,quite a few. He didn't lie to me or make up shit excuses, however, which does paint things in an acceptable light - shit happens, and I am usually understanding.

Blind auctions, contradictory statements pertaining the state of one's build, getting one's build cancelled for rightfully complaining about a delay etc. - that taints the experience irreversibly, and I can't help wondering if the future owners (hopefully at least) will be able to truly enjoy the new guitar. Here's hoping, but you have no right to do this kind of thing to people, and that's a fact.

 

[carpone]

Yes you are correct Fred about being able to truly enjoy the guitar with the tainted experience. We have all seen so many custom guitar builders go into a hole by poor business practices over the past years. Not only does it seem to taint the guitars but also create a level mistrust when hiring any custom shop guitar builder. We the guitar players just want that "dream" guitar and play it. There is to much drama that seems to go into buying from custom guitars. It is easier to just go buy a guitar at a store and customize it your self if able to. I have one other custom being made from another luthier and in all honesty that will most likely be the last one.

 

[thrsher]

I can attest to experience. I have no bond with my vik and if all this didn't happen, I would have sold it. The guitar is great but it doesn't trump the experience. I'd be much happier giving my hard earn money to another person such I have with ormsby for example. Best experience I have had to date with a build.