Where do musicians stand financially?

[KimtheButcher]

I made a post earlier, but...

If you have a dream, you fucking live to recreate that dream, yeah? I may be hell drunk, but really....who here is playing music to make money? Who anywhere, makes art, that is shared with the public, to make money? Is it about making money, or is it about sharing our awesomeness with others so they can feel the same way about our awesome tunes that we do?

Also - i am an endorsed artist as well - all that means to me, is that i have the best luthier in Australia, if not the world (Stewart Custom Guitars) supporing me as an artist, and it means they as a figurehead believe in my art the way i do.

Do we really think that pop music, written by 50-year-old men still living with their parents, for "artists" like what is culminated by the top-50 charts, is our dream? That aint my dream, fo' sho' \m/

I write music to grow as a musician and to try and help others feel the same passion for music, and metal, as i do. I currently have 1100 or so Reverbnation fans, i live with my GF and have no job....but hey. I'm playing music. I'm growing as a musician and engineer, and people are loving it. I hope i am helping people to feel the same as what i feel when i hear an awesome tune..

I guess what i am trying to say is that are we really doing this to make money, or is this a passion of ours (all) that we wish to share with the world?

I hope this makes sense! I'm off my tits atm...perhaps this is a naive POV, but...

Peace and brutal technical death metal \m/

 

[DLG]

I currently have 1100 or so Reverbnation fans, i live with my GF and have no job....but hey. I'm playing music. I'm growing as a musician and engineer, and people are loving it. I hope i am helping people to feel the same as what i feel when i hear an awesome tune..

 

[Loomer]

Hahahaha, this thread makes me less than optimistic about having joined a pretty serious band with a lot of gigs lined up

 

[Varcolac]

If I had Steve Buscemi on bass and Adam Sandler on the drums, I wouldn't need money.

 

[jymellis]

In the '90's and before, music was a lucrative business, but with music piracy, the economy, and the over-saturation of bands that are considered "big", there's not enough money to go around to pay everyone. t.

this is not entirely true i played in a few bands and we where lucky to get 50 bux a night to split up between members (or pay the bar tab with). not to mention self promotion was a joke (no internet, everything was word of mouth, and getting a "quality demo" out was $$$$$$$

 

[drmosh]

There was a report on this once. And I actually don't have the link anymore. But You gotta keep into consideration mann. That nomatter how many albums a Band sells. There are ALWAYS costs We people ignore,which the Band bears. Example Record Sales commission, Record company share,equipment managers,advertising Etc. But alotta Musicians make alotta $$ from their Endorsements. Huge guitar companies say..like Ibanez. Pay their artists in millions just to make their artists stay put. A huge example would be Mick Thomson. He left B.C.RICH for Ibanez. Not that I'm pointing any brand in specific. But a new Band which has a good record company might make on average 40,000$ per record. And Touring is a separate story. But Bands make much more from touring then Albums:Fact. My point is that, You won't make money if You start a Band with the purpose to make money. Just see Adtr's example for say. When they started out nobody knew they existed. And look at where they are now,in just 1 year. A Band has many income openings and many expenses they need to cover. Just go a quick search and You'll find that Tosin Abasi and all the other members of Animals as Leaders are now offering on tour lessons. This way they can share their expertise with people who love their music. And get a decent amount of income for themselves..

I have no idea where you get your info but you are so so wrong about the endorsements. Maybe Mick Thompson will get some cash along with his deal, but you really think the average musician will get any handouts from an endorsement deal?
We used to get percentages off a few things back when we toured, and our drummer had a longer standing deal with tama drums but he never got anything free even when he went on to tour with bigger bands.

 

[WickedSymphony]

I guess what i am trying to say is that are we really doing this to make money, or is this a passion of ours (all) that we wish to share with the world?

I wish it could be all about sharing our passion with the world, but sharing your passion doesn't necessarily put food in your stomach and a roof over your head for the staggering majority of artists out there. I'd love to play music for a living, but I'm going to school for something else because I know that there is a very, very slim chance of ever being able to live comfortably off of that, and I DO want to be able to support myself and stand on my own two feet.

 

[Chickenhawk]

I'm curious as to what you guys's definitions of "selling-out" is.

For instance, if say, Justin Bieber (You can replace him with any well-known pop star), called me up tomorrow, and asked me to play guitar in his band for the rest of eternity for a bagillion dollars a note, I wouldn't call that selling out so much as getting a good paying gig

Would you enjoy playing the music?
Would you consider it a 'challenge'?
Would you grow as a musician because of what you were playing?

Answer no to those, and you've sold out.

The question I feel sums it up:

Are you sacrificing your musical integrity for a paycheck?

I didn't sell out playing country, because I thoroughly enjoyed playing the music. I don't think I sold out playing pop music, because I had fun with the bass lines, and made them complex, and challenged myself with them (I didn't make shit for money, either).

I, personally, feel music should push you. It should challenge you. In some way; technicality, emotion, groove, feeling, etc. Once it stops being challenging, or enjoyable, and you're only doing it for the money: You've sold out.

But, to each their own. I'm not here to judge...just label

 

[DevinShidaker]

this is not entirely true i played in a few bands and we where lucky to get 50 bux a night to split up between members (or pay the bar tab with). not to mention self promotion was a joke (no internet, everything was word of mouth, and getting a "quality demo" out was $$$$$$$

I meant as far as bands getting "huge" went, if I band had made it onto MTV, they were generally making money. Get played on headbangers ball now, and all you get to do is say "cool, I was on MTV". I've been playing shows since before myspace came around, so I know all about doing self promotion the hard way. I've hung up my fair share of flyers and passed out more than enough shoddily recorded demos around my city

 

[DLG]

If I had Steve Buscemi on bass and Adam Sandler on the drums, I wouldn't need money.

I ain't fartin on no snare drum!

 

[kmanick]

the internet has completely changed the music biz (for the worse IMO).
Piracy, overexposure and market saturation of 1/2 assed talentless bands make it difficult for bands with real talent to make it.
the music biz is also a "business"
how many people in bands here ever even think about their "target demographic"?
don't got one? I quote "You're so set to fail"
You think Taylor Swift ever has to beg someone for a place to sleep on the road?
metal is a tough sell, screaming vocals just don't go over with the general public. without massive airplay on the radio and TV it's almost impossible to become "rich"
by being a musician.
look at someone like Billy Ray cyrus.
dioes anyone here on this forum realize that this guy has sold over 9 million albums world wide? (Billy ray fucking Cyrus)
How many metal bands outside of Metallica can say that these days.
shit 1 million would be outstanding.
if it ain't radio friendly and it doesn't appeal to the 'chicks" you ain't going to get rich.
Look at NickelBack. I'm not a fan of their music (at all) but they are some smart mofos.

Quick quiz # 2.
what was the highest grossing rock act on tour in 2010???
Bon fucking Jovi. that's right Jon Bon Jovi and company.
Nevermore????
Arch Enemy????
Dream theater????
nope
all turds in total salesa compared to the "marketable" performers.
# 2 higest toruing act of 2010
U2.
Ok you guys starting to figure this out yet?
without media like MTV pushing real metal bands thye just don't get the huge public exposure needed to make real money.
If bands like Motley Crue, Ratt, Dokken,really any of those 80's hair metal bands came out now without MTV pushing their videos 20 times a day they'd have never gotten anywhere near as big as they did.
It really is sad, the Internet is so good in so many ways, but it has been a god awful thing for the music biz.
You want to be a rich musician.
Write music that gets played on Nickelodean.
the 9-16 year demographic is huge in US.
those artists are making money.
It's a sad truth.

 

[Esp Griffyn]

Unless you have a radio hit or two and you play large venues 100% of the time, you have no money basically. The music business just has no love for challenging, technical, or heavy music. I hate to be that guy, but it's the truth. It's a hard thing to make a lot of money doing.

The unfortunate truth. Look at an absolute wizard like Ron Jarzombek, I bet he wallpapers or plasters on his days off just to make money. Probably the most talented musician I can think of that does not have a major label deal, and he simply cannot get the musicians together to record all of his musical ideas, and what he does record likely does not sell in vast quantity.

It doesn't matter how good you are, unless you make something accessible you are unlikely to make much money from it. I remember reading an interview with Cannibal Corpse years ago (2001-ish perhaps) when they said they finally were in a position to quit their jobs that they worked when off-tour and concentrate on the band as their sole sources of income. For a band that is today the biggest selling death metal band ever, that's pretty shocking. More than 13 years ploughing time and money, having "big" record deals (for a DM band) and only then were they making enough to quit regular work. Even now, they will not be rich or living luxurious lifestyles by any means. Biggest death metal band on the planet.

Chances are, even if you make something a lot of people would pay to hear, you are still one in a million trying to get that out there. Good luck, don't give up on real work. To many musicians I know of are "trying to make it", and not making any money, not having jobs, and then realising they have to enter the real world, and they have a shite CV with no real work experience and several wasted years when the competitors they face for jobs have real CVs. Sitting in a job interview saying "Yeah, that gap between highschool and now...I was trying to make it in a band, it didn't happen, can I have the job?" is not going to cut it.

It's tough but if you go into the process of attempting to make a living out of being a band, if you don't go in with your eyes completely open you could well find yourself coming back down to earth with a bump!

 

[Guitarholic]

You are mistaken about that endorsement statement. The only way you actually make money off of an endorsement is if you have a signature guitar for sale, you make a percentage off of that. Other than that all you get is free gear or a discount. I have an Ibanez endorsement, and they have the right to use my image/name for any marketing purposes in exchange for a certain number of free guitars over the course of my contract. After I get my free stuff, I get a slight discount on things from them. I'm not complaining because I love Ibanez and everybody that I work with, but as far as money is concerned, they don't pay me or any other artist that doesn't have a signature model.

Devin is so right.

It's crazy how many misconceptions there are about endorsement deals. I really recommend reading this article written by Tim McKee (head of the A&R department at Mesa/Boogie): Tim McKee from Mesa Boogie talks endorsements | Mark LaFay Dot Com

 

[Esp Griffyn]

Another thing I just thought of, all these guys saying "make $100,000/£100,000 from record sales, split it 4 ways, deduct merch costs, tour bus, hotels etc" and at the end each member gets maybe £3000 tops, you have to deduct national tax. You might have just earned £3000 as your cut of your bands record and merch sales over the last year, but then the taxman will deduct another 22% or so as tax, then another few percent for national insurance deductions, and then anoter 8% or so in council tax, you what really goes into your pocket is only maybe £2150 or so out of £3000. In reality your monthly income is something like £170. Tax is going to hit your income hard, so factor that into your figures!

Unless of course, your total income is below £7000 per annum or whatever the lowest payable tax bracket is, in which case you will be so broke they won't even bother asking you for tax money anyway. Earning less than £7000 a year is great money if you are living at home and in full time education, but if your full time occupation is music, you are in a band selling 10,000 albums a year (good luck with that if you are independant!) and you are not even making enough from that to be asked pay tax, in the words of Mos Def, "You best find a new grind to get green" because you will not be making a living from that line any time soon.

 

[Steve08]

The unfortunate truth. Look at an absolute wizard like Ron Jarzombek, I bet he wallpapers or plasters on his days off just to make money. Probably the most talented musician I can think of that does not have a major label deal, and he simply cannot get the musicians together to record all of his musical ideas, and what he does record likely does not sell in vast quantity.

Nah, I'm pretty sure he's a full time musician as he teaches quite a bit in Texas in addition to playing a lot with a few different cover bands to my knowledge. The money he makes is hardly glamorous, though, for sure.

Which goes back to something I mentioned when this thread was started, it is MUCH easier to get money from stuff like that than just playing in a band.

 

[DaveCarter]

Whilst a lot of it has been covered already, here's an old thread with a lot more info: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/general-music-discussion/77616-how-much-money-do-metal-bands-musicians-make-year.html

As a VERY rough guide based on record/ticket sales to represent fan size:

If youre selling in the 1,000,000s then you'll be rich.
If youre selling in the 100,000s you'll get by.
If you're selling in the 10,000s you'll be broke.
If you're selling in the 1,000s you'll probably spend more on the band than you earn from it, depending on recording/touring costs.

Generally, modern metal bands will never sell above the 10,000s, and most wont even get that far. Bands like Bullet For My Valentine, Avenged Sevenfold, Trivium etc probably do quite well, but theyre very mainstream and very marketable; they dont make money because theyre great musicians, they make money because they have major labels behind them and a huge number of people like their brand (music, image, artwork, the whole package).

Here's a few examples that I found in interviews when I was researching this issue, before I eventually decided that metal is best left as a hobby to work around a real job. Some people dont mind being flat-out broke so long as theyre doing a job that they love, but Im not one of them!


Opeth have been together for 20 years, signed for 10, over here theyve sold out the Royal Albert Hall in London, and headlined the main stage at the 10,000-person Bloodstock festival. Each member earns about £14,000/year. Thats as much as a supermarket shelf-stacker, for a Roadrunner band that have made about 10 albums and have been going for 20 years. For the first 10 years they made nothing.

Arch Enemy sell 200-300,000 of each album, have been together 15 years, signed for 10 of those, and each member earns about £8,000/year from the band. The minimum wage here is about £10,000/year.

One of the guitarists in Nile still works in Pizza Hut.


Bottom line is 99.9% of metal bands make fuck all, and those that do make money dont do so because theyre 'good', they do so because theyre extremely marketable and popular enough to generate huge incomes from merch and touring. Unless youre happy to live in relative poverty for the duration of the band's career, keep it as a hobby. As Scott Hull has proved, its still possible to work a well-paid, full-time job, and still have enough time to be in a metal band that can sell nearly 100,000 records, make about $20,000/year in merch and play some major festivals and a few shows in your time off work. Sounds like a good plan to me

 

[great_kthulu]

I have talked with gunface from the red chord about this, he said about 3 months on the road allows one to live for a little under a month comfortably. So if you stay on the road 9 months out of a year, you can scrape by.

 

[DaveCarter]

Depends where youre living too. A lot of signed bands that I know are still living at home with their parents, which helps to keep the costs of living down, as does having a family that supports you financially. By the way, I forgot to include the links to references that back up the facts/figures in my post above, so shout if anyone wants to see them, I wouldnt post things like about about bands without having heard/read it from the artist themselves.

 

[Nociceptor]

I think if you really look at people who ARE successful on a long term basis as a musician, you will find that most of the financial success comes post-fame. This is not to say that fame=fortune, but rather fame is a platform off which money making ideas get credential. And it doesn't have to be rock-star fame, just credible sources of praise from more than one group of people willing to pay you to perform some service which you have some supposed expertise in.

Case studies:
David Bowie
Trent Reznor
Devin Townsend

The common factor among these people...age.

It takes time to build a career, and music is certainly no exception. The market is saturated, and the people responsible for moving the money around are not held accountable by any government.

The best strategy is based on probability, not formula. Do the research, educate yourself, build sincere relationships that are mutually beneficial, and don't sign anything unless there is some sort of payoff. But most importantly, BE CREATIVE! These are fundamental to any business, big or small. A day-job is a necessity for anyone trying to get their own business off the ground. You will sacrifice sleep, lifestyle, and in some cases your sanity. But there is always hope, and if no one ever tried because the odds were stacked against them, we wouldn't have cool films like 300 to watch

Nevermind the 300 thing...that was gay. I shouldn't have said that. But I like that movie.

 

[JJ Rodriguez]

How are musicians now financially?

Depends on what they do for a job that will earn them money.