Where do musicians stand financially?

[Clydefrog]

I remember a few years ago, the members of Iced Earth were asked how they get by. They all had day jobs. I remember one message Jon sent out one day (maybe 5-10 years ago), stating that he was FINALLY making enough to stop being a waiter.

A WAITER. Almost 20 years in to a very respectable career as a musician.

Look, if you're wanting to make money off of this sort of thing, you're going to have to sacrifice so much that it's probably not even worth it. I do what I do just because I love music, and anything I make ON THE SIDE from my HOBBY, great.

 

[DLG]

the moral of this thread: stay in school kids!

 

[The Reverend]

A question that I think really needs to be answered here is are any of you guys in bands that tour and make even a little bit of money (like enough to pay a monthly cell bill) happy with where you are, and the money you make?

It seems like a silly question at first, but I know from personal experience that just because you've started doing something, and love doing it, doesn't mean you'll recommend it to others without some serious warning.

 

[DLG]

A question that I think really needs to be answered here is are any of you guys in bands that tour and make even a little bit of money (like enough to pay a monthly cell bill) happy with where you are, and the money you make?

It seems like a silly question at first, but I know from personal experience that just because you've started doing something, and love doing it, doesn't mean you'll recommend it to others without some serious warning.

^that all depends on the kind of person you are and what your life goals are.

Personally, I'm much happier playing in a band on my off-time, making music I want to make just as a release, not a career goal, gigging when I can, while at the same time not living in my mom's basement, having enough money to go on vacations, buy new gear and not eat ramen noodles every night.

Too some people, living in a van for half the year and scrapping by is worth it because they are playing music and that's what they love, but me personally, I have two albums out, a couple bands, I make music with my friends during the weekends and after work, and I would never consider sacrificing my financial security and quality of life for chasing a pipe dream.

Living comfortably from metal is like winning the lottery, literally, those are your chances.

Look at Dream Theater. They are a big band by any standards, you'd think they can fuck around a bit and enjoy life, yet still, they need to keep pumping out albums, and they need to stay on the road...why? Because the house payments, car payments, school tuitions won't pay themselves.

 

[aslsmm]

well id say that because most bands keep touring and playing the same songs over and over, its safe to say that the money is not what it appears to be or it takes money to tour. korn has been doing small venues for the last 2 years now. it seems like a way for them to make money. and id say that they are as big as a heavy band can get. the smart musicians that get big, get into producing.

 

[DLG]

well id say that because most bands keep touring and playing the same songs over and over, its safe to say that the money is not what it appears to be or it takes money to tour. korn has been doing small venues for the last 2 years now. it seems like a way for them to make money. and id say that they are as big as a heavy band can get. the smart musicians that get big, get into producing.

don't lose sleep over korn, dude. They have several platinum albums, they probably tour out of fun at this point, or they spent all their money on blow.

 

[The Reverend]

Well I'm not necessarily talking about making a lot of money here. I'm fully aware that they only people making serious money in music are mainstream artists. I'm just wondering if, for those musicians still living at home and sharing a van with a bunch of dudes 6 months out of the year, is it worth it to you? And would you tell someone else to do that?

I have other plans for my life that focus on some of my other passions, but I'd like to pursue music, even if not in a financially successful way. Just part of wanting to live a full and varied life, I guess.

So if any of you can offer some insight, go for it.

 

[aslsmm]

don't lose sleep over korn, dude. They have several platinum albums, they probably tour out of fun at this point, or they spent all their money on blow.

well what ever they spend their money on while touring i guess could be considered touring expenses. lol

 

[DaveCarter]

I think the fact that they choose to be broke by being in a full-time speaks for itself; if they werent happy doing it then they just wouldnt do it. Any minimum-wage job will pay more than being in the average metal band, so its not like theyre doing it because they have to, they do it because its what they love doing.

Since you asked if people in bands would recommend it to others, Guthrie was asked what his advice was to kids who wanted to be professional musicians, and he said "Dont do it, it all ends in poverty and tears!". He then gave a serious answer about developing technique, but for his initial reaction to be on monetary grounds I think says something. As does this reaction from Dave Pybus: YouTube - Cradle of Filth Interview with Dave Pybus (2 - 2) skip to 5:50.

 

[Ntbillie]

I have no idea where you get your info but you are so so wrong about the endorsements. Maybe Mick Thompson will get some cash along with his deal, but you really think the average musician will get any handouts from an endorsement deal?
We used to get percentages off a few things back when we toured, and our drummer had a longer standing deal with tama drums but he never got anything free even when he went on to tour with bigger bands.

The guy who called Me a retard really hurt my feelings. ="( Anyways..Okay sorry I should've mentioned that a FEW EXCEPTIONS receive money. Sorry. But as far as I know..alotta companies pay their artists in huge amounts just to make them stay put. Although it's true that royalties are only gives on Signature models. An abundant amount is paid to good reputable musicians who have international recognition. and here I will mention 'NOT ALL MUSICIANS'..It's more like an image thing. The bigger the artist The bigger the endorsement deal.

 

[Fisch MIOLI]

Being in an unsigned has its pros and cons. My bands first tour with I Declare War was ten days long. IDW was getting 150 a night. We asked for 75. Most of the time we didn't make that. I would say the average amount we got from the booker was probably $40. Which went straight into the gas tank. We did however do surprisingly well on merch sales.

I don't know, it just might be me coming up from the hardcore scene but money is never a big issue. As long as we can put enough gas in the tank to make it to the next show, we are good. You become pretty good at stealing food from grocery stores.

 

[drmosh]

The guy who called Me a retard really hurt my feelings. ="( Anyways..Okay sorry I should've mentioned that a FEW EXCEPTIONS receive money. Sorry. But as far as I know..alotta companies pay their artists in huge amounts just to make them stay put. Although it's true that royalties are only gives on Signature models. An abundant amount is paid to good reputable musicians who have international recognition. and here I will mention 'NOT ALL MUSICIANS'..It's more like an image thing. The bigger the artist The bigger the endorsement deal.

I dunno who gave you that rep, but that's uncalled for. Have some counter rep from me.

HOWEVER, you are still totally wrong in your assessment. A lot of companies DO NOT give their artists money to stay put, we are talking about a very select few artists that everybody knows and already associates with a particular product.

 

[Ntbillie]

I dunno who gave you that rep, but that's uncalled for. Have some counter rep from me.

HOWEVER, you are still totally wrong in your assessment. A lot of companies DO NOT give their artists money to stay put, we are talking about a very select few artists that everybody knows and already associates with a particular product.

Haha Thanks mate. I thought maybe You did. Anyways..Yeah I guess I shouldn't have brought this up. Since I dint realize that the thread was mostly discussing about newly established Musicians. I'll look for the link if I can find it..Which is where I read that artists like John-5 and Mick Thomson have paid endorsements. And every good word they put out for the Brand is usually paid for. I'll just end this now. =p by admitting I shouldn't have made my comment in the first place. Sorry for any misconceptions. Cheers.

 

[misingonestring]

Original, creative music with odd time signatures and shred guitar: Doesn't chart ever, no money.
Replace odd time sig with 4/4 and shred guitar with power chords: Sometimes charts, sometimes make some money.
Replace instruments with drum machine and samples: Charts, makes shit load of money.

At least that's what I think.

 

[BuriedAlive]

yeah it takes YEARS and tons of hits to become a band like metallica, or the rolling stones or any huge band. but when you start out watching interviews and seeing different bands, they don't really have money at all. I watched an interview with Born Of Osiris and they were getting 10$ a day to eat, or buy cigerettes or whatever they need.

 

[cantripvox]

Has anyone ever stopped to think, "Why is the maker of the sell-able product making the least amount of money in the food chain?"

Why do we, as musicians, allow our products to be placed in a market where only the venues and promoters are making the money while we are told that we couldn't sell our shit without them? And make no mistake, they are making A LOT of money!

I'm not sure about other states, but in Texas, when unsigned, local metal bands book shows, they are told that they might have to play for free unless they bring over a certain amount of people to the show.

As an example: a first time band wants to book a show. The venue says, "Okay, you can play on Thursday night. You won't get paid, no matter how many people you bring, but if you bring at least 35 to the show, we'll book you again on a weekend, opening slot."

Then, if you do that, you get booked on a weekend and told, "Okay, we will pay you $3 a head IF more than 20 people say they are there to see you. But you have to pre-sell 50 tickets @ $15/per or you don't get to play the show AND you have to give up the money for all the tickets you did sell, even if you don't reach your quota."

Granted, they aren't asking for a percentage of your merch sales at that point, but after being thoroughly raped, you are lucky to have money to buy merch. I have known bands to pay up to $300 just so they could play a show with a signed band they like..FOR FREE!

The fact is the venues do not care what a band sounds like, whether they are good, bad, unique, etc. They only care about how many people you bring to the place. The problem is that they rely on the bands to promote their business without lifting a finger to promote themselves. Country, Jazz, Pop, and other types of bands get guarantees for like $300-$600 a show with no requirements other than showing up and playing music.

The difference is they have to audition. The venue is hiring them to entertain people who will already be there. Metal clubs act like the mafia while pretending to be bars. They let any shitty metal band on the stage, no matter what they sound like, in the hopes that all of their friends from school will show up to see them this one time. And these young bands eat it up because all they want to do is get on stage. Kind of like trying to get laid for the first time.

This is our own fault. We have allowed this to happen because there is this mentality of instant success that pervades the genre of metal. We think that all it takes is one certain type of person hearing the music and liking it, and then dollar bills fall from the sky.

One day, maybe we will stand up for ourselves and start investing in our own businesses and stop handing over all the profits to people just because they tell us we have to. If they don't have a product to sell, they make no money. WE MAKE THE MUSIC! THE MUSIC IS THE PRODUCT. We must learn to do things for ourselves. It will take a grass-roots movement and people with influence who are willing to stick out their necks and stand up for the little guy.

Things happen when people unite. Metal heads love their bands. We would have an army at our disposal.

 

[mountainjam]

I won't disagree that there are many people who are in bands who don't really have the talent and uniqueness of vision.

So, let's narrow that down a bit: How percentage of musicians/bands would *you* say were genuinely talented, and went into it with the idea that they would make it... and failed?

And, to take one of your driving points... if there was a track record "a large portion of the most talented musicians" not wanting to live the "lifestyle"... what do you mean by "lifestyle?" Are you possibly saying that there is a financial aspect to trying to make it?

Going further, are you also acknowledging that, even after investing all that time into it, they might not make it, as talented as you yourself are saying they are?

----

I have to admit, I'm curious about one last thing: Would you say you yourself are talented, and driving towards success? If so, it would be interesting if you let us know what band/group you play with, so we can see the results of your words in actions. It would be a nice contrast with those members here who have posted about the opposite experience... assuming, of course, that you don't think they're not talented, or that their stories of trying to break through and failing are untrue.

Cheers!

I just don't think your getting my point. I realize the majority of musicians are broke, im only trying to say its possible to make money if you can find the right approach through vision, originality, and raw talent. Can you honestly tell me the majority of music is original and unique while still being appealing to a semi large audience? Personally I don't think so, most bands jump on the "bandwagon" (no pun intended) to some degree. And I think when a awesomely talented group comes along, they are appealing to a small niche market, not big enough to make money. I personally have great respect for a band such as mastodon. They have genuine raw talent, they are original, yet they write music that still appeals to larger crowd, and have achieved large succes without ever selling out.. And since you asked about me, I could be the best or worst songwriter in history, but its irrelevant because I've chosen not to try. I don't like traveling, living on the road being away from home and my friends and family for extended periods of time. That's what I mean when I say not choosing the lifestyle.

 

[DLG]

just think about it though, if it didn't work like this, we would never have shit like Strapping Young Lad, that comes out of angst, depression and being broke as shit.

Dev was a 19 year-old kid who got a gig with fucking Steve Vai, he must have thought that all his prayers have been answered and he was going to live the high life from then on.

After being in LA, making videos, promoting a big album, touring the world, he comes back to Canada and he's broke and feels like he's worse off than when he started.

these feelings are channeled into music and SYL is born.

So be thankful that metal is still about being gully and broke, that's the way it should be. When it leaves that state of mind, you start getting hair metal and/or Avenged Sevenfold, so thank your lucky stars.

 

[DaveCarter]

Has anyone ever stopped to think, "Why is the maker of the sell-able product making the least amount of money in the food chain?"

That would be because:

Why do we, as musicians, allow our products to be placed in a market where only the venues and promoters are making the money while we are told that we couldn't sell our shit without them? And make no mistake, they are making A LOT of money!

Afraid you kinda answered your own question. It happens because bands do allow it, simple as that. The metal market is totally saturated, far too many bands around competing for not enough metal fans. From a promoter's point of view there's often no reason to pay a band much, if anything, because there's always going to be other bands around who will do it for cheaper, or for free. If both bands are bringing the same number of fans to the show then its just good business sense to book the cheaper band.

Example: When I was in my last originals band, we were never paid more than £50, which barely covered petrol, and that was if we bought a lot of people. At the same time my pub-covers band was going out for £300 without having to bring anyone. So I tried to set a basic price of £100 to book my originals band, the result: we didnt get booked anywhere til we dropped the booking fee. The promoters knew that they could just call another local band who could bring just as many people and werent going to ask to be paid.

If we were pulling in 200 people to every gig, then we'd have had some punching weight and could demand a fair booking fee, but that pretty much sums up what for me is the number one rule of being successful in the music industry: "It doesnt matter how good your are, or how hard you work, its how many people like what you do (enough to pay for it)". You'll have more luck if you are a good band and do work hard, but without a lot of people who like you, it counts for nothing as far as the industry is concerned, its essentially one big popularity contest.

 

[dream-thief]

What is irking me a bit is that there are plenty of disparaging comments on here, saying you'll never make it, there's no money, etc. (excuse my slight exaggerations) and plenty of people saying you could make money if you 'sell out', or play music that is non-metal, but very few comments saying that in a lot of cases, they are one and the same thing.

If 'X' can make enough money to get by (just while on tour, and have another job for the rest of the year), and works for the love of music, why do they have to be playing metal? There's thousands of artists in every other genre with any kind of underground scene in exactly the same boat. Granted it is worse for us, but metal's been working class music since it began, deal with it.

To be honest, if you're alive enough to post on this forum, it's obviously going well enough for you. If you need more financially, then yeah, by all means, do something else as well, or even just do something else.

There are hundreds of ways to make money in the music industry (as has been said) and touring metal isn't really one of them. Seeing as the music industry is devolving (or more realistically, 'developing') so quickly, I think it'll be a fun ride to go with it and see where it takes us. Very few of the ways we make money in western society are time-tested, to the point where the word 'guarantee' becomes completely arbitrary. I realise if there was a place for whinging about money issues related to playing metal on the internet, that this would be it, but hardly merits the amount of dissuasive talk this thread offers. I have nothing against a touch of realism, it just seems this thread is getting a little too repetitive.

As for piracy (one of the general public's main concerns about the collapse of the business), wouldn't record labels be better of hiring even one person to each label, part time, to trawl the net and remove material where it needs removing?

I'll stop there.