Will Russia invade Ukraine again? (Yes, yes they did)

[S4M4R1N]

One does not need to be a Nazi sympathizer to arbiter power and justify means to an end. Vatican helped Nazis escape to South America because "catholic nazis are better than godless communists", even if they just threw a jewish baby into an oven. US government hired nazi engineers (Operation Paperclip) and nazi military staff (e.g. NATO Chairman Adolf Heusinger) because it boosted it's power, even if they were advising Hitler. But, doing so speaks volumes on the moral position of concerned party.

Zelensky knows quite well about nazi infested areas in Ukrainian military, interior and parliament. His biggest contributor, Igor Kolomoisky, had no problems with financing far right Aidar Battalion and Azov Brigade at the same time. Latter had no problem with taking money from a prominent jew. Because the goal was to rip Ukraine away from Russia even if it meant harming a lot people. One does not simply tear down centuries of shared history in couple of years and everybody involved knew it. It's always about elite's wish to pocket more, enhance their market share or enter new ones (e.g. EU/US). Zelensky's presidential promise was to make peace - to stop the bloodshed with breakaway states and make amends with Russia per sympathizing populations wish. Already during his first year he was told to f**k off by right wingers in the trenches and his staff began making deals with very same oligarchs he promised to bring to justice. He had a choice - pull though or cave in to powers that be. The rest is history.

 

[Drew]

You guys, I think we found the Russian simps!

 

[nikt]

War learns lot of humility Drew. Hope you guys in US won't have to learn on your own land and skin.

 

[bostjan]

One of the Nazi goals was to exterminate the slavs. I'm not saying there aren't Slavic nazis, but what a stupid position to take.

All of the reports of huge powerful groups of neonazis in Ukraine have to be exaggerated (but still with a seed of truth as all good lies).

Also keep in mind that the entire USSR was, at one point, defacto part of the axis. At least until it became obvious that the nazis were just using them. After the nazis invaded Ukraine and Belarus, they ere well known (documented) to have executed entire villiages on the order of eradicating the slavs to make room for nazi homes.

 

[S4M4R1N]

Extremist groups (e.g. soccer club fanatics, right wing groups and outright nazis) are only as strong as their contributors are. Well organized, funded and armed minority is enough to steer majority by influence, fear and force (e.g. NSDAP, Hamas, any African military junta). Is Ukraine run by neo-nazis? Not quite. Historically, they have been used as a battery ram against political opponents and uncompliant population. Now they fill a certain layer in the military and play their part there. Numerous material on captured/KIA ukrainian troops shows that certain ranks tend to have white supremacy related tattoos (usually among the likes of Aziv and Kraken regiments). There's your run-of-the-mill swastikas or spinning wheels (slavic version of swastika) on shoulders, chest etc. But also ridiculous stuff like full chest Hitler portraits or full torso nazi stormtrooper uniform tattoos etc. The point is that they are a prominent force in current Ukrainian affairs.

Actually, USSR was the last among allied countries to sign a non-aggression treaty with Third Reich for a very straightforward reason. USSR had no luck signing alliance treaties with the french or english for years. It was evident where things are going already in early 30's. Western countries hoped that Hitler would go against USSR first and did not want to enter into milittary alliance with USSR to avoid any support obligations. USSR was never part of axis at any point. They became an ally by necessity and an outright enemy after the Fulton speech, as the world entered into the Cold War era.

 

[bostjan]

Extremist groups (e.g. soccer club fanatics, right wing groups and outright nazis) are only as strong as their contributors are. Well organized, funded and armed minority is enough to steer majority by influence, fear and force (e.g. NSDAP, Hamas, any African military junta). Is Ukraine run by neo-nazis? Not quite. Historically, they have been used as a battery ram against political opponents and uncompliant population. Now they fill a certain layer in the military and play their part there. Numerous material on captured/KIA ukrainian troops shows that certain ranks tend to have white supremacy related tattoos (usually among the likes of Aziv and Kraken regiments). There's your run-of-the-mill swastikas or spinning wheels (slavic version of swastika) on shoulders, chest etc. But also ridiculous stuff like full chest Hitler portraits or full torso nazi stormtrooper uniform tattoos etc. The point is that they are a prominent force in current Ukrainian affairs.

Actually, USSR was the last among allied countries to sign a non-aggression treaty with Third Reich for a very straightforward reason. USSR had no luck signing alliance treaties with the french or english for years. It was evident where things are going already in early 30's. Western countries hoped that Hitler would go against USSR first and did not want to enter into milittary alliance with USSR to avoid any support obligations. USSR was never part of axis at any point. They became an ally by necessity and an outright enemy after the Fulton speech, as the world entered into the Cold War era.

Have to disagree on a few points.

Most glaringly, you are flat out wrong about the USSR having difficulty forming treaties with France. They had two very robust treaties specifically to keep Hitler from going to war. The USSR (Stalin) went behind France's back and made nefarious deals with Hitler that directly conflicted with those treaties.

Not sure how you'd miss that detail if you ever studied up on WW2 history, since it was one of the most shocking betrayals of all time and totally shaped the outcome of the war and fucked the allies hard. Google Franco-Soviet Treaty of Mutual Assistance if you think I'm making shit up just to argue.

I also disagree with your characterisation of Ukraine as a "battery ram." It's just part of eastern-central Europe, that's all. All of those countries have been the site of numerous wars due to their location. Ukraine has only ever been subjugated and invaded. Name one time in the last 200 years Ukraine as a political entity ever invaded anyone.

The USSR helped Germany invade Poland and Finland and the Baltics. Pretty sure that makes them de facto part of the axis during that short span of time. They couldn't be officially part of it just because they hated Japan. But whilst they were helping Germany take over Europe, Japan left them alone, even though Japan really wanted to invade Soviet territory.

So, I think you might need to brush up on your WW2 history. It's understandable, being that the war was 7-8 decades ago, but when you are trying to make points about how racist a country is, and half of what you say is historically inaccurate and the other half is unverified, it makes it difficult to believe a word of any of it, you know what I mean?

 

[S4M4R1N]

Thank you for speficially pointing out that treaty. Related historical facts confirm exactly what I was saying above:

French foreign minister, "Pierre Laval, was sceptical of the desirability and of the value of an alliance with the Soviet Union. However, after the declaration of German rearmament in March 1935, the French government forced the reluctant foreign minister to complete the arrangements with Moscow..."

"The Franco-Soviet Pact ... remained to serve the purpose of acting as a hollow diplomatic threat of a two front war if Germany pursued an aggressive foreign policy."

"The Franco-Soviet Treaty's military provisions were practically useless because of their multiple conditions, such as the requirement for Britain and Italy to approve any action. Their effectiveness was undermined even further by the French government's insistent refusal to accept a military convention stipulating how both armies would co-ordinate their actions in the event of a war against Germany."

"However, after 1936, the French lost interest, and all of Europe realised that the pact was a dead letter. By 1938, the appeasement policies implemented by British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and French Prime Minister Édouard Daladier ended collective security and further encouraged German aggression."

"...reluctance of the British and the French governments to sign a full-scale anti-German political and military alliance with the Soviets led to the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact between the Soviet Union and Germany in late August 1939..."

I find it hard to reach contrary conclusions about this treaty. You were mentioning nefarious deals and screwing others over. Perhaps you are alluding to the Munich Agreement? You know, the one where british and french provided for the German annexation of of Czechoslovakia, contrary to the defence pact between France and the Czechoslovak Republic. The signing parties were british, french, nazis and fascists. Well, according to your logic then, there you have another "defacto axis"

But for sure, I wouldn't mind brushing up on how "USSR helped Germany invade Poland and Finland and the Baltics". Especially Finland.

And no, Ukraine is not "just part of eastern-central Europe". It's "just a bit" more than that.

 

[bostjan]

So we are going with the false equivalence between a) the UK and France not invading Germany over the annexation of the Sudentenland and b) the USSR and Nazi Germany invading Poland together in order to split it between themselves.

Clearly both ended up being mistakes, but, aside from that, what do you think is the same about those two events?

Also, for the record, two treaties between the USSR and France specifically concerning Nazi aggression is the opposite of "USSR had no luck signing alliance treaties with the french." You can try to shift around and say that the French didn't trust the USSR, but that's not at all the fact that was disputed here.

And frankly, I don't care to argue with you about however you think racist Ukraine is used as a "battery ram" in geopolitics, since you aren't even providing anything specific there and it sure reads like some sort of racism of its own. There are nationalistic and racist people existing in every place. It's a matter of how the goverment in power reacts to such things that reflects the character of the nation as a whole. So, for example, if I say that some fringe minority is justification to go level a city of innocent people, as is going on with Russia and Israel, that's the behaviour that we point at and say "that's not right." And the counter argument that there are some bad people there is just restating the original flawed justification without adding any new argument. If you can't or don't want to see how that doesn't work as a rhetorical device, then I don't want to discuss that point any further.

 

[S4M4R1N]

Well, Bostjan, you took the liberty of providing a contrary opinion on my views, which is fine. But also referred to a historical event that does not support your own conclusions.

Yes, it is correct that there were treaties between french and soviets. But condescending statements about other's level of knowledge calls for the ability to read beyond labels. Franco-Soviet Treaty was a sham agreement and both parties knew it. For years of it's existence, french denied soviets any military accords to the agreement. This was a major factor in soviets signing Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with the nazis. And that was the main point - prelude to MRP. I was not drawing any parallels or looking for equivalents. I was talking about things which lead to each other.

My views were about current state of Ukrainian internal affairs and certain force that plays a part in it. So your conclusions in this regard are strange to me and hard to follow up. But ultimately, nothing written here matters. Ukrainian conflict is a slavic thing. As before, they are going to re-establish the hierarchy among themselves and come to amends one way or another. I think this is when the real popcorn time will begin

 

[USMarine75]

^ Someone catch me up on this?

Are we to believe that Ukraine is secretly the bad guy here, or that Russia is in any way justified in their aggression because of Nazis?

We have neo-Nazis in the US too. Does that justify Russia invading us next?

 

[nikt]

^ Someone catch me up on this?

Are we to believe that Ukraine is secretly the bad guy here, or that Russia is in any way justified in their aggression because of Nazis?

We have neo-Nazis in the US too. Does that justify Russia invading us next?

Come on . You know it's about Ukraine wanting to join NATO. And yes, Russia is the bad guy for starting the war, as well as USA for fuelling it's proxy war with Ukraines blood.

 

[USMarine75]

Come on . You know it's about Ukraine wanting to join NATO. And yes, Russia is the bad guy for starting the war, as well as USA for fuelling it's proxy war with Ukraines blood.

 

[cthsqd]

It's that delicate sort of "superior understanding"... "Yes, we're slaughtering innocents by thousands, but we would never do that if that wasn't for the greater good, because you know... if we don't conquer Ukraine now, then in 10 years Belarus will choose the West over us, and later Kirgistan, Moldova and others will follow, and then we'll be f@%ked, so we really have no other choice than to invade because it's good..."
It's not something that the usual westerner would understand. You've got to be russian to get this right.

 

[Drew]

Wait, considering it's evidently two Poles pushinfg this "Ukraine are Secretly A Bunch of Nazis" narrative, can we just stop and pause and note that Poland is still in the middle of throwing out their own far-right white nationalist party, after the last election, and their president is slow-rolling it and giving the defeated far right party a chance to form a majority government first, even though in the election three non-Nazi parties collectively won a majority of votes and indicated they intended to form a coalition government to kick the racists out?

Considering Poland flirted with a return to right-wing nationalism to a degree that they became first a rallying cry for far-right nationalist movements throughout europe, and then a cautionary tale to vote those fuckers out everywhere else, I think it's pretty rich to be hearing, "no, but really, it's the Ukrainians who are secretly Nazis" when Poland is still in the process of taking out their OWN trash.

Then again here in the States we have Trump as the Republican front runner, so who the fuck knows.

 

[S4M4R1N]

It's quite disturbing that a mere notion of unfavorable historic facts about Ukrainian history and suggestion that some of that past is still a force today will lead to such childish responses.

The world is not black and white. It is not unimaginable that an ethnic jew will hire nazis to fight Russians. Folks who's government was funding Bin Laden should know this Instead of throwing in ad hominems, one should consider if he hasn't been a bit too smug for a bit too long with his own comfy narrative

 

[bostjan]

It's quite disturbing that a mere notion of unfavorable historic facts about Ukrainian history and suggestion that some of that past is still a force today will lead to such childish responses.

The world is not black and white. It is not unimaginable that an ethnic jew will hire nazis to fight Russians. Folks who's government was funding Bin Laden should know this Instead of throwing in ad hominems, one should consider if he hasn't been a bit too smug for a bit too long with his own comfy narrative

I agree that this situation in Ukraine is far more complicated. But right and wrong are still sometimes black or white. Russia is in the wrong for invading Ukraine. Nazi Germany was in the wrong for invading Poland. Bin Laden was in the wrong for bombing NYC. These are pretty morally straightforward situations.

The Russia-Ukraine war, WW2, and the US-Afghanistan wars are much more morally complex than the single events that are associated with them.

I don't see any ad hominems per se, but as a US Citizen, I agree that we are in the most fragile of glass houses when it comes to picking at other nations' foreign policies.

 

[nikt]

Wait, considering it's evidently two Poles pushinfg this "Ukraine are Secretly A Bunch of Nazis" narrative, can we just stop and pause and note that Poland is still in the middle of throwing out their own far-right white nationalist party, after the last election, and their president is slow-rolling it and giving the defeated far right party a chance to form a majority government first, even though in the election three non-Nazi parties collectively won a majority of votes and indicated they intended to form a coalition government to kick the racists out?

Considering Poland flirted with a return to right-wing nationalism to a degree that they became first a rallying cry for far-right nationalist movements throughout europe, and then a cautionary tale to vote those fuckers out everywhere else, I think it's pretty rich to be hearing, "no, but really, it's the Ukrainians who are secretly Nazis" when Poland is still in the process of taking out their OWN trash.

Then again here in the States we have Trump as the Republican front runner, so who the fuck knows.

Drew at least we check IDs to our voters and don't alllow to vote to dead people via absentee ballots.

Also you need to check polish election law how our goverment is formed not just copying narrative about PiS loosing the election and nonsense that there is any majority coalition (8 parties with no common program in any case). There is a big chance for re-elections in early 2024.

Also watch out calling polish president and prime minister nazis. Both have jewish roots

 

[StevenC]

Drew at least we check IDs to our voters and don't alllow to vote to dead people via absentee ballots.

Wow. Not beating the fascist accusations by saying voter ID is a good thing or that voter fraud is a significant thing that happens in the US.

 

[TuneLowPlaySlow]

I have been around this thread in read-only but this thing got me hard! Hah!
As a Russian-speaking (not anymore) Jewish-Ukrainian from the very east region of Ukraine with a POW cousin from Azov. I'm thrilled to read more about this! Please, keep it going.

Zelensky knows quite well about nazi infested areas in Ukrainian military, interior and parliament. His biggest contributor, Igor Kolomoisky, had no problems with financing far right Aidar Battalion and Azov Brigade at the same time.

Is Ukraine run by neo-nazis? Not quite.

But

The point is that they are a prominent force in current Ukrainian affairs.

P.S. I did not vote for Zelensky and was quite against him from the beginning.

 

[narad]

Wow. Not beating the fascist accusations by saying voter ID is a good thing or that voter fraud is a significant thing that happens in the US.

I guess FOX news is big in Poland