Writing in different times?

[Glimpsed-AM]

Okay, so my vocalist said that our band kind of sticks to 4/4 time quite a bit and we started to catch on to that. So he told me we need to start working with different time signatures. My problem is I don't really know how to do that, I listen to quite a few bands who use different timings, but I don't know how to go about doing it myself because I'm not that experienced with it. Is it possible to do different time signatures with just a regular metronome? Any tips on how I should start learning about this would be great! Thanks.


Also sorry if you guys get this question a lot...

 

[Stealthdjentstic]

90% of the time bands trying to force odd time signatures just sound retarded. Don't worry about it too much. Tab out some of your riffs and I think you'll be surprised by how many are not in 4/4.

Also, never listen to your vocalist

 

[Glimpsed-AM]

Also, never listen to your vocalist

Well honestly I would, but he's been playing guitar and writing riffs longer than I have in another death metal band. So I just kinda went with it and agreed with him.

 

[VBCheeseGrater]

Well honestly I would, but he's been playing guitar and writing riffs longer than I have in another death metal band. So I just kinda went with it and agreed with him.

That's cool, sounds like he has a bit of experience, so he may have some good points. Of course we'll never know for sure about the guy over the internet, but kudos to you for listening to a more experienced member.

And yes, you can use a regular metronome. Just divide the measures up into multiples of something other than 4. For example, for 6/8 timing, your measure would end after 6 clicks of the metronome. So a 6/8 riff would start the next measure after 6 clicks, and if it's really simple may even repeat after 6 clicks. A 7/8 measure would end after 7 clicks.

That should at least get you in an offbeat mentality. Alot of times i'll write a 4/4 riff, but then add or remove something to throw it off, other times what i write will just happen to be in funky time.

 

[Glimpsed-AM]

Alot of times i'll write a 4/4 riff, but then add or remove something to throw it off, other times what i write will just happen to be in funky time.

This is what my vocalist tried explaining to me, he took one of my riffs in 4/4 and added a few extra notes that threw it off, but when he explained it he took the tempo I usually play it at, which is around 140, and he sped the metronome up quite a bit and played it with the additional notes to make it fit, and that's what kind of confused me, because he still played it at about the same speed but the metronomes time was different. When you add something to throw it off do you absolutely have to increase/decrease the tempo?

 

[Stealthdjentstic]

No you do not. Clearly, he's still a vocalist at heart

 

[JStraitiff]

^ lolol pretty much. Especially a death metal vocalist.

 

[Stealthdjentstic]

Yeah, honestly man, everyone can tell when people force their riffs into certain time signatures most of the time. It's really not worth compromising the flow of your songs in a half assed attempt to make them seem more techy.

 

[JStraitiff]

I agree for sure. Whatever you write is whatever you write. If it comes out to be in an odd time signature then it does. I write a lot of tunes in 6/8, for some reason my strumming parts turn into 6/8.

 

[Chronophobia]

This is what my vocalist tried explaining to me, he took one of my riffs in 4/4 and added a few extra notes that threw it off, but when he explained it he took the tempo I usually play it at, which is around 140, and he sped the metronome up quite a bit and played it with the additional notes to make it fit, and that's what kind of confused me, because he still played it at about the same speed but the metronomes time was different. When you add something to throw it off do you absolutely have to increase/decrease the tempo?

I think what he was doing with the metronome was speeding it up so that you could hear the riff he was playing in 8th notes or 16th notes instead of quarter notes. Your metronome probably operates on quarter notes, so because your vocalist wanted to play something in an eighth note timing, he had to double the speed of the click so that its eighths instead of quarters, you know what I mean? If you wanted to hear 140bpm in 8th notes, you'd have to set it to 280.
I'm writing this from my phone, it keeps screwing up on me so I'll leave it at that despite me having more to say. Good luck! odd timing can be fun but don't worry yourself if it's not natural yet.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

Konnakol time again! Try this: in time, say "Ta-ka Ta-ka Ta-ka Ta-ka", so that each syllable is rhythmically equal. Keep repeating that, and clap on the first syllable of each group (Ta). This is what we call a simple rhythm - each beat is divided into two equal parts. You can express those same Ta-ka's metrically as "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &", but people seem to get confused the second you bring numbers into the equation. Rhythm isn't some number on a page, so let's just reject that now. Next, say "Ta-ki-ta Ta-ki-ta Ta-ki-ta Ta-ki-ta" over and over again, and clap on the first syllable in each group of three. This is what is called a compound meter - each beat is divided into three equal parts.

Go through the simple pattern for a few minutes. Just clap your hands and mumble takatakataka like a crazy person. Eventually, you're going to lose a sense of downbeat and all of those taka's are going to sound pretty much the same. Do the same thing with the compound pattern, now. Takitatakitatakitatakita, clap clap clap! You could do this forever, and that pattern will sound like an even beat once you start getting lazy and stop putting accents in. This is the majority of all of the music you've heard in your lifetime: even beats, simple or compound meter, going forever and ever. You can set a metronome to your hand claps and keep it even.

But fuck all of that. Try this one: Ta-ka Ta-ki-ta Ta-ka Ta-ki-ta (let's just shorten this to 2 3 2 3). And clap, goddamnit! Make sure you're clapping on the first Ta of each group. Notice something? No matter how many times you repeat this, you'll always hear a group of 2 followed by a group of 3. It's got a bit of a groove, huh? What you're dealing with now is unequal beats, or odd meter. Your metronome probably can't match what your hands are clapping, so don't bother. Yeah, I know, but metronomes suck at odd meter. If you want to use a metronome for this, you have to set it to the Ta-ka's and Ta-ki-ta's, but that's faking it. Learn to subdivide.

Anacrusis - Far Too Long


Listen to the first riff in this song, and do the konnakol. You should hear a repeating pattern: Ta-ki-ta Ta-ki-ta Ta-ki-ta Ta-ka Ta-ka, or 3+3+3+2+2.

That should give you a feel on how to work with rhythm. Lastly, I see this idea being tossed around a lot, and not only in this thread: if you try to force somethingsomething into somethingsomething, it's going to sound forced. Well, duh. I don't take that as a bad thing, though. You need to force yourself to try new things if you are ever going to learn, and if you ever hope to make those things feel natural. And, really, some of my best material comes from experiments I invent to try new things, because I'm so focused on learning those things, and my work is consequently more intricately put together than if I use something that I can just toss off without a second thought. By all means, force shit! You'll know you're doing it right when your drummer fucks up all the time and hates your guts!

 

[Solodini]

Something to make odd signatures sound right is to vary what rhythmic values you use, so it sounds like a real rhythm, rather than just chugging along to your metronome. Lots of people make this mistake: they move out of 4/4 and forget that note lengths can vary, rather than just playing the same values as the metronome.

 

[niffnoff]

Odd/Compound time signatures = Sound good if you know what the fuck you are doing and aren't trying to force them.

Simple = Sound good syncopated or normal.

I honestly prefer writing in 4/4 and 3/4 with minor interventions in 7/8 it's just so much more easier unless I really think 7/8 is the way to go personally. Unless you guys are going like a prog route or something what's the point?

 

[morrowcosom]

If you force a good riff into an odd time signature and cannot feel the groove, you have just ruined a perfectly good riff.

If it sounds good in 4/4 to you, you do not have to be like dream theater and ruin an other wise good riff by inserting/removing beats.


Rush and Tool do things in odd time signatures that sound very natural, interesting, and musical. I'm sure their ideas for song construction just come out that way.

As for learning how to make odd times sound good definitely look at SchecterWhore's Konnakol thread.

It is not so much about the time signature as where the accents are. They are what influence the way a song moves. A time signature should just naturally rear its head whenever you figure out where you like the accents placed.

 

[Solodini]

Unless you guys are going like a prog route or something what's the point?

Why do time sigs other than 3 or 4 have to be reserved only for prog? Just as you shouldn't force it into an odd sig, sacrificing the song, why force it out of an odd sig just to make it "not prog"? You write in different keys for variety so why not do the same with rhythm? As you said, you don't need to stick rigidly to one sig, even within the song so varying signatures can just be a natural phrasing expression.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

Odd/Compound time signatures = Sound good if you know what the fuck you are doing and aren't trying to force them.

Simple = Sound good syncopated or normal.

I honestly prefer writing in 4/4 and 3/4 with minor interventions in 7/8 it's just so much more easier unless I really think 7/8 is the way to go personally. Unless you guys are going like a prog route or something what's the point?

niffnoff, I have mixed feelings about this post. Compound meters aren't difficult to write or play at all. If you think that, I advise you to re-examine. Odd meters aren't, either, but musicians are scared of them because musicians are scared of them (read: presumptive bullshit), and they perpetuate this idea that something is harder than something else, when in reality it isn't. When I was doing my first few semesters of musicianship, I taught people how to perform pieces in rhythms they've never encountered a half hour before we were supposed to perform them, and it usually turned out great. My band's current drummer, on the other hand, is kind of apprehensive when it comes to odd meter and still screws up really simple passages that we've been working on for months despite the frequent reminder that the eighth note is constant or whatever. It is 100% about mindset. All of this vocabulary is really simple shit, but people choose to put up walls to block any new information from entering their world and put a box over their heads to kick out anything that doesn't fit their paradigm. I ask that the world reject that way of thinking. It won't happen, but it needs to happen quite desperately. Every second somebody says "no" is a second that somebody could be learning something.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[Solodini]

I could not agree more. If you can count to 15 then you can play in 15, you just need to learn the part the same as you would any other time sig.