Xbox One

[Necris]

Having no real interest in any of the next generation systems none of this really affects me but it will be kind of interesting to see how this works out. It will almost certainly end the used games market for this generation but, while it's admittedly unlikely, may actually lead to a decrease in sales of physical copies of new games anyway since the discs are only used for installation.

As I understand it after installing and authorizing the game to play on your account you could reuse the disc over and over again to install the game on to different systems with different accounts but upon going to play the game on any of those other accounts you would essentially be blocked by a pay wall (for lack of a better term) requiring you to buy an authorization code to actually be able to play the game.


The "pre-owned" fee is still confusing as well, since while all of the signs point to it being full retail price for the game as stated by Phil Harrison*, but as far as I can tell no-one has asked if the price will drop over time as the game ages.

Gamers aren't the most patient people in the world so I can't imagine this hurting Microsoft as much as it may seem like it would.
Even assuming the Pre-owned fee for a game does decrease with time I can't see any of the gamers I've met choosing not to buy a copy of a newly released AAA title and instead borrowing the disc from a friend, installing the game and then waiting 3+ months to be able to authorize their account to play the game a price lower than full retail.

 

[Mordacain]

I guess I just don't see things the same way as other people. I have not thought of games as possessions since Steam really started rising in prominence. I view games no differently than I do going to the movie theater now. There is an up-front cost associated with paying for an entertainment experience.

I only go to theaters to see certain movies, so those are the only ones I pay full price for. Everything else I rent or buy on sale.

I seriously doubt, that when digital distribution takes over as primary distribution method that there will not be a "rental" scheme in place. Rental is a deeply entrenched concept with regards to movies and games.

If anything, digital distribution has enabled me to play more games as I can stock up on games I don't feel the need to play on release day while they are on sale. The developer still gets money directly from me, the games are always available, as opposed to physical copies that degenerate over time and are only manufactured for short periods of time (for less popular titles).

I realize I'm probably expressing an unpopular opinion, but that's all it is, an opinion. I'm not saying anyone who disagrees is wrong, just that I might think differently and to me, none of this is doom and gloom, end of the world type stuff.

 

[groverj3]

Now that I think about it... I don't think I've bought more than one or two used games in the last 5 years. I tend to buy stuff I want right when it comes out anyway.

I seriously don't think most of the bitching is warranted. Just wait until Sony shows off the hardware, and they do the same exact stuff. I'd be very surprised if they didn't. I'm no prophet, but I really do think that's the way the industry is going. It's been that way with big PC games for years now.

You know how you can't play XBLA games on someone else's profile unless you're logged into yours if they don't own it? It's essentially like that, but with full games.

I also heard that your purchases are tied to your console as well as your gamertag. Meaning, people with multiple profiles on one box can still play games on any of them as long as you stay on the same xbox. It's only when you go to a friend's system that you will need to be logged into your profile.

Some of this stuff sounds way more annoying that it will actually be in practice, I think.

 

[ncfiala]

The developer makes the game, of course they need to see money from it. A game is not a physical possession. The disk that game comes on is, but the game itself is not. This has changed since the old days. You are not buying a cartridge-based game with low development costs, you're buying something that costs more to make than the budget of most hollywood movies to develop a tier one title.

This is why EA and other developers have started disabling online content with used games, so as to force someone's hand with regards to used sales and recover lost revenue.

What's absurd is thinking that a developer can sink 200 million worth development costs into a game and that they shouldn't see the revenue from it.

I makes no difference if the game is on a disk or cartridge. It makes no difference if the product is physical or intellectual. It makes no difference if the game costs millions to develop. Once a game is purchased the purchaser has the right to sell it to anyone and anyone is allowed to buy it and the developer is entitled to exacly squat. It's called the first-sale doctrine. Cars cost millions to develop and are filled with all sorts of patents and intellectual property. That doesn't entitle car manufacturers to a cut every time a used car is sold.

On the other hand, Microsoft has every right to do what they are doing as well. I just think it's a really asshole move and I won't be buying.

 

[flint757]

I seriously don't think most of the bitching is warranted. Just wait until Sony shows off the hardware, and they do the same exact stuff. I'd be very surprised if they didn't. I'm no prophet, but I really do think that's the way the industry is going. It's been that way with big PC games for years now.

It depends on which angle they go with. They can either stand beside Microsoft, make a cut of every XBOX sale (Blu Ray) and make money off the lack of resales as well with Microsoft or trump them and sell more games/units by not doing the same thing (gamble, people may not give a shit).

At this point I think it could go either way. Considering they've been neck and neck all this time and they will profit off of XBOX sales I could see them definitely following suit. It is a financially smart move.

I makes no difference if the game is on a disk or cartridge. It makes no difference if the product is physical or intellectual. It makes no difference if the game costs millions to develop. Once a game is purchased the purchaser has the right to sell it to anyone and anyone is allowed to buy it and the developer is entitled to exacly squat. It's called the first-sale doctrine. Cars cost millions to develop and are filled with all sorts of patents and intellectual property. That doesn't entitle car manufacturers to a cut every time a used car is sold.

On the other hand, Microsoft has every right to do what they are doing as well. I just think it's a really asshole move and I won't be buying.

I don't think they are getting rid of the used market, but more modifying it. We can debate the necessity or rights about it all day, but it doesn't seem like they are completely eliminating the used market and they are going to do what they are going to do anyhow. If I were to guess it has more to do with Amazon, Gamestop, Walmart etc. selling used games more than the individuals. This whole issue is most likely going to happen behind closed doors (with the middlemen) and us as consumers probably won't even notice at all. These companies, especially Gamestop, make a killing for doing nothing. When they sell a new game they owe, I assume, the publishers, developers, etc. a cut, but as soon as it is used all the profit is their's.

I buy a CD and I don't 'use' the CD, I use what was stored on it. The CD cost the company nothing and has been around for a long time now. It is the contents that pays the bills and takes years/money to develop. This is why licensing exists. This is how software and PC games has been for a long time now. It was only a matter of time before everyone else caught up.

 

[Mordacain]

I makes no difference if the game is on a disk or cartridge. It makes no difference if the product is physical or intellectual. It makes no difference if the game costs millions to develop. Once a game is purchased the purchaser has the right to sell it to anyone and anyone is allowed to buy it and the developer is entitled to exacly squat. It's called the first-sale doctrine. Cars cost millions to develop and are filled with all sorts of patents and intellectual property. That doesn't entitle car manufacturers to a cut every time a used car is sold.

On the other hand, Microsoft has every right to do what they are doing as well. I just think it's a really asshole move and I won't be buying.

I'm well familiar with First Sale Doctrine. I also know it's been reinterpreted more times than Kafka and continues to be challenged with different results frequently.

All that any publisher needs to do is make each copy of the game a non-transferable license and sell that instead. This is why EA can get away with restricting online content, as it is licensed, not sold.

 

[ncfiala]

I'm well familiar with First Sale Doctrine. I also know it's been reinterpreted more times than Kafka and continues to be challenged with different results frequently.

All that any publisher needs to do is make each copy of the game a non-transferable license and sell that instead. This is why EA can get away with restricting online content, as it is licensed, not sold.

To me it just seems like game makers are whining. They want something (money from resells) that absolutely no other industry gets. What makes them special. The answer is nothing.

Frankly, if these ridiculous multi-million dollar budgets are making it hard for game companies to turn a profit, then start making games with less development costs. I would love that. It would be nice to see games that are actually good games and not just eye-candy that suck ass. Great games like Metroid and The Legend of Zelda I'll remember playing all my life. Probably 90% of the games I play now I'll never really remember playing. Sure they look great. But they're mostly unmemorable pieces of crap that are just like a bunch of other games. I'd love it if the movie industry would do the same. They spend huge amounts of money to just to put out one turd after another. I could probably count the number of good movies I've seen in the last decade on my hands.

 

[Mordacain]

To me it just seems like game makers are whining. They want something (money from resells) that absolutely no other industry gets. What makes them special. The answer is nothing.

Frankly, if these ridiculous multi-million dollar budgets are making it hard for game companies to turn a profit, then start making games with less development costs. I would love that. It would be nice to see games that are actually good games and not just eye-candy that suck ass. Great games like Metroid and The Legend of Zelda I'll remember playing all my life. Probably 90% of the games I play now I'll never really remember playing. Sure they look great. But they're mostly unmemorable pieces of crap that are just like a bunch of other games. I'd love it if the movie industry would do the same. They spend huge amounts of money to just to put out one turd after another. I could probably count the number of good movies I've seen in the last decade on my hands.

That's funny, it just seems to me like gamers (a select group anyway) are whining. I see so many comments from people about how new games suck and they just wish the industry would go back to the way it was in their childhood. The funny things is...those games are still there. New games are being made in the same style as older games that kick all sorts of ass but at the same time, we have amazing games that are not only pushing the bounds of gaming, but story-telling and sound production as well.

The odd thing about those more retro-flavored Indy games is that no-one really seems to care (in the US anyway) that they can't resell those titles once they've downloaded them. I'd be very interested to see if the EU court ruling even stands or what else comes of it to that effect.

 

[flint757]

To me it just seems like game makers are whining. They want something (money from resells) that absolutely no other industry gets. What makes them special. The answer is nothing.

Frankly, if these ridiculous multi-million dollar budgets are making it hard for game companies to turn a profit, then start making games with less development costs. I would love that. It would be nice to see games that are actually good games and not just eye-candy that suck ass. Great games like Metroid and The Legend of Zelda I'll remember playing all my life. Probably 90% of the games I play now I'll never really remember playing. Sure they look great. But they're mostly unmemorable pieces of crap that are just like a bunch of other games. I'd love it if the movie industry would do the same. They spend huge amounts of money to just to put out one turd after another. I could probably count the number of good movies I've seen in the last decade on my hands.

Then why would you bother wasting your money on new games at all. Just buy old games/catridges or emulators and have at it.


The game, movie and music industry do have to deal with people playing without paying which is quite a bit different than other industries. I can test drive a car, but I'd have to buy it or steal it to use it for longer than a test drive. No other industry gets it because no other industry has to deal with what software, movies, music, games, etc. have to deal with...at least for now.

 

[Matt_D_]

To me it just seems like game makers are whining. They want something (money from resells) that absolutely no other industry gets. What makes them special. The answer is nothing.

Frankly, if these ridiculous multi-million dollar budgets are making it hard for game companies to turn a profit, then start making games with less development costs. I would love that. It would be nice to see games that are actually good games and not just eye-candy that suck ass. Great games like Metroid and The Legend of Zelda I'll remember playing all my life. Probably 90% of the games I play now I'll never really remember playing. Sure they look great. But they're mostly unmemorable pieces of crap that are just like a bunch of other games. I'd love it if the movie industry would do the same. They spend huge amounts of money to just to put out one turd after another. I could probably count the number of good movies I've seen in the last decade on my hands.

hi, i used to be a game developer. let me explain what's happening.

games cost a lot to make. most console titles are in the region of 20-50 million USD. thats before advertising. you've got a team of 100+, with contractors working for about 12-18mths. its extremely expensive to make modern console type games.

thats a lot of money to make back, dead space 3 according to reports had a target of 5 million sales. it'd probably need somewhere around the 3 million just to break even.

the problem is that at the height of the ps2 era, when there was 100million+ consoles you could sneeze and sell a million copies. game budgets were much lower as well, ranking in at about 5 million. coupled with less games on the market, you'd see much higher sales figures for even non-mainstream games. hell burnout revenge (the only ps2/xbox game I worked on) did well over 4 million copies.

swapping generations means budgets went up. expectations for quality are much higher. we're in a very similar situation to where film was at the end of the 80's action movie period. every game is a blockbuster, every game cost 20+ million to make, and every game needs to sell millions to make money. this also means that companies take less risks, and try to hit as broad a target market as possible to ensure high sales. (just like film again). every AAA (ugh) title needs to sell over a million copies. most struggle to hit 100k

we're already seeing a massive upswing in indie games that are actually *good*. unfortunately there's so much product out there that actually selling enough to break even is *hard* (much like film again, right?)

if you want interesting games, you need to vote with your wallet. buy indie games you like, dont buy madden. dont buy COD. dont pirate shit. dont buy used games from eb. put your money where your mouth is.

now why does the second hand sale market matter? gamestop/eb etc are effectively competing with the industry itself. you very rarely find say, a department store which sells new clothes, and secondhand clothes from the same label next to each other. it doesnt happen. whats worse is that they'll 'buy your games' back for massively undercut value, and sell them at close to actual retail price, especially for new games.

when pretty much the entire industry is struggling to hit their sales targets, and the second hand market is the only thing keeping afloat brick and mortar game stores. you've got a big problem. its not so much that the games industry wants to make money off second hand sales (but of course they'd like to). its more that they dont want to have to compete with similar priced used versions of the product they're trying to sell to stay in business. thats the real problem with the 'used game market'. not the selling of games per se, but the fact that the industry is competing with the very conduit of actual retail sales. its a very very odd situation.

its one of the many reasons that you'll see the next gen go mostly digital. they'll have to have some retail presence to keep wallmart happy, (wallmart wont carry the consoles if they cant make money off the software).

again. it all boils down to money. and if you want interesting games vote with your wallet. fund kickstarters of things you like, buy indie games. put your damn money where your mouth is. and dont buy used games if you can. support developers who actually do interesting things. think about who your money is going to. its the same for musicians as it is for gamedev and film. its up to us, the consumers to back the things we like.

</endrant>

 

[Spinedriver]

I only bought my PS3 less than 2 years ago, so I won't be first in line to get a next gen system or anything. That being said though, the options being presented on the new Xbox don't seem very appealing for a number of reasons.

1. Having to install disc games on the hard drive is going to suck because if you have games that are 15-20 Gigs, between those and DLC, that drive is going to get filled up pretty damn quick. They did say you can connect an external drive but those cost money as well.

2. It seems like the main focus of the system is 'online activity' meaning streaming video, social sites, etc.. Thing is, not everyone has unlimited internet bandwidth, so the more they make the system dependent on being "online", there could be pretty huge secondary costs for a lot of people. My mom lives outside of town and their internet connection maxes out at 1.8 Mbps and have a bandwidth of about 25 Gb. So for anyone who lives in a rural area, it's going to be pretty limited.

I dunno, I guess I'm just in the same boat as a few of the others here that remember the days of the N64, SNES, PS2, etc.. where all you had to do was go out, buy a game and you could play it. If you wanted to play against friends, get another controller(s) and that was it. It seems these days, games are being designed mainly for multiplayer/online use and solo play a distant second (even reviewers spend more time talking about the online gameplay & features than they do single player mode).

 

[groverj3]

hi, i used to be a game developer. let me explain what's happening.

INFORMATIVE STUFF HERE

The hard truth that lots of gamers don't want to hear.

I love gaming just as much as the next guy, and most of my friends are the same way. However, the "hardcore" gamers I know are disappointed by EVERY development in the industry. Sometimes I wonder if they actually like ANYTHING... because all they do is bitch.

While I don't like some of the developments, at the end of the day it will affect my day to day life very little. It won't even have much of an effect on playing games

 

[Spinedriver]

its one of the many reasons that you'll see the next gen go mostly digital. they'll have to have some retail presence to keep wallmart happy, (wallmart wont carry the consoles if they cant make money off the software).

</endrant>

As I mentioned above, this is also a bit of a sticky situation for the developers. Not everyone has access to a) high speed cable or fiber op internet connections. or b) many internet providers (particularly in the US) put a data cap on user bandwith before they start either throttling the speed down to a crawl or start charging an overage fee for every Mb over their limit.

Back in the day, all you had to do was get the system and it was easy after that. you could either rent or buy games at a video store, borrow them from friends, get them at flea markets, etc.. everyone could enjoy them.

With all of the "developers are losing money on used sales", endless DLC stuff that costs money and games whose primary focus is online play,banter going around, it seems that more & more the console market is being made for people with deep pockets rather than people who like to play video games.

 

[VBCheeseGrater]

What's absurd is thinking that a developer can sink 200 million worth development costs into a game and that they shouldn't see the revenue from it.

All due respect (really) they DID see the revenue when the new copy was bought. just not for the resale. If someone sells the game, they can no longer play it (and shouldn't be able to). The person who bought it can now play it. If both need to play the game - two copies must be bought (new from the developer at some point).

I'm all for developers getting money for the products they create and can see your side - pirating sucks!! But these are still video games selling millions of copies similar to DVDs, CD,s etc, this is not a SQL Server Enterprise licence we are talking about. As long as the ability to play the game is removed from the seller, then used games are legit.

All that any publisher needs to do is make each copy of the game a non-transferable license and sell that instead. This is why EA can get away with restricting online content, as it is licensed, not sold.

I hear you on this - it's just a shame that it's gotten to this point for $50 console games.

 

[groverj3]

A random interjection, but on the subject of backwards compatibility:

"The move away from PowerPC to 64-bit x86 cores means the One breaks backwards compatibility with all Xbox 360 titles. Microsoft won&#8217;t be pursuing any sort of a backwards compatibility strategy, although if a game developer wanted to it could port an older title to the new console. Interestingly enough, the first Xbox was also an x86 design - from a hardware/ISA standpoint the new Xbox One is backwards compatible with its grandfather, although Microsoft would have to enable that as a feature in software - something that&#8217;s quite unlikely."

AnandTech | The Xbox One: Hardware Analysis & Comparison to PlayStation 4

 

[Matt_D_]

As I mentioned above, this is also a bit of a sticky situation for the developers. Not everyone has access to a) high speed cable or fiber op internet connections. or b) many internet providers (particularly in the US) put a data cap on user bandwith before they start either throttling the speed down to a crawl or start charging an overage fee for every Mb over their limit.

yup. and a lot of those providers also had deals with sony/ms for unmetered downloads there will always be some retail option (see sony with the vita using small sd type cards), but the vast majority of transactions will be digital.

there's going to be a rough changeover period though for the next decade or so. living in australia i know all about shitty internet.

maybe retail will change to somewhere you can download content. remember those disc burning things that were touted to change "music retail" from the early 2k's?

With all of the "developers are losing money on used sales", endless DLC stuff that costs money and games whose primary focus is online play,banter going around, it seems that more & more the console market is being made for people with deep pockets rather than people who like to play video games.

well, a lot of companies are resorting to the above to try and make money because straight sales arent there. and yeah i hate it too. i really hate F2P. im always left wondering "how much exactly am i going to end up paying to actually enjoy your game". very few get it right, most leave me feeling that if i'd had known i'd have to sink 20$ into it to get any fun out of it i'd have just played something else. I really tend to just avoid anything F2P these days.

But as i said above. lots of people are doing the right thing. its up to us to get behind them and encourage that behavior. while F2P is making money, people will continue to pursue that revenue channel...

its like flocking behaviour. everyone just flocks towards the largest channel of incoming money.

 

[Matt_D_]

A random interjection, but on the subject of backwards compatibility:

both wont be backwards compatible. unless sony are sticking ps3 hardware in their ps4. strangely. the ps4 and xboxOne will be almost identical hardware wise

 

[groverj3]

both wont be backwards compatible. unless sony are sticking ps3 hardware in their ps4. strangely. the ps4 and xboxOne will be almost identical hardware wise

Yeah, I'm quite aware. Just putting a good explanation out there about the lack of that feature for people who don't understand the reasons.

 

[flexkill]

I remember when buying new current games for my Genesis was 20 Bucks and I would buy many a week....good times. I also remember when Mortal Kombat came out for the Genesis and it was the first time I payed, I think it was 60 bucks, for a game and I was like....Jesus 60$ freaking dollars!!!!!! I knew that things were changing for the worse right then and there...

 

[Matt_D_]

I remember when buying new current games for my Genesis was 20 Bucks and I would buy many a week....good times. I also remember when Mortal Kombat came out for the Genesis and it was the first time I payed, I think it was 60 bucks, for a game and I was like....Jesus 60$ freaking dollars!!!!!! I knew that things were changing for the worse right then and there...

try living in australia. games were > 100$ AUD even after the USD and AUD had hit parity. thankfully they're down to about 70$ atm.