You Are Going To Hell If You...

[Metal Ken]

good thing that jewish law doesn't apply to non-jews

well, right before my last quote, jesus also said
"Therefore, whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." Sounds pretty binding to me.

 

[Desecrated]

I can't really see an omnipotent Creator really giving two fucks what people eat, or how old a fruit tree is.

Jesus also said
"Therefore, whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven."

 

[DavyH]

You Are Going To Hell If You...

* eat fruit from a tree less than five years old. [Lev. 19:23]
* cross-breed animals. [Lev. 19:19]
* grow two different plants in your garden. [Lev. 19:19]
* trim your beard. [Lev. 19:27]
* are tatooed. [Lev. 19:28]
* plant crops for more than seven years. [Lev. 25:4, Ex. 23:10-13]
* insult a leader. [Ex. 22:27]

Culled a few:

Fruit trees. Lemons take about seven years to bear fruit anyway. Well, mine did. This one's self defeating.
Cross breed animals: I never wanted a mule.
Grow two different plants in your garden: WTF?
Trim your beard: A very orthodox Jewish colleague explained the benefits of electric razors (the injunction is against a naked blade passing over your skin. I'm sure God had his reasons).
Are tattooed. Oops.
Plant crops for more than seven years: basic crop rotation.
Insult a leader: what, even when he's Mugabe or Bush?

Nice one.

 

[The Dark Wolf]

well, right before my last quote, jesus also said
"Therefore, whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." Sounds pretty binding to me.

Heh. That doesn't mean Jesus was talking about the whole of all that Old testament stuff.

Remember, this is the same dude that summed it all up pretty much in "love." He was just fucking up the Pharisees in their own dogma. People getting judged by the measure they meet out.

Interesting thought, eh? The harshest people here in this life facing the harshest judgments in the next life?

 

[Metal Ken]

Heh. That doesn't mean Jesus was talking about the whole of all that Old testament stuff.

Remember, this is the same dude that summed it all up pretty much in "love." He was just fucking up the Pharisees in their own dogma. People getting judged by the measure they meet out.

Interesting thought, eh? The harshest people here in this life facing the harshest judgments in the next life?

He was talking about the laws of the old testament, generally most of which are contained in Leviticus & exodus - the books mentioned in the original post. 's all i'm saying.

 

[The Dark Wolf]

I don't think he was talking about those at all, in the sense of everyone else, except in the way that the Pharisees of his day picked and chose. Sounds familiar, eh? But they were the harshest critics of people they felt "broke" those laws.

So, it's why he was harder on them. But that doesn't equate to a blanket endorsement of Levitical Law. Think about it, Ken. Who was Jesus' fiercest enemy? Rome? Satan? Sinners? Nope.

The Levites, Pharisees, and all the conservative, religious leaders of his day.

 

[progmetaldan]

Yeah, the problem with the Pharisees was that they actually added a whole bunch more laws and regulations, which actually had nothing to do with God, but just made themselves feel more holy, when in reality they were lacking the very foundations of what the Law was actually about, which was genuine repentance...

You can't just pick what you want, it's an all or nothing kinda deal

Correct. However some need to be taken in the context of what they were. If you'll allow me to, I'll explain the Biblical, Christian view. Not my opinion, or take on it, as that is fraught with danger, and is half the reason there's so much confusion as to what is actual 'Christianity'. That is why the bible is so important and I do believe it to be the Holy word of God...

First lets look at the law:

There were a few different reasons for the Old-Testament laws...

1. Constitutional: For Israel to change from being a wandering extension of Abraham's family, to a proper nation, they needed a set of laws as part of their constitution. There were 2 types, Apodictic Law- An always applicable decree such as the Ten Commandments. The other is Casualistic Law- which basically are 'case' laws, such as making restitution for damage to property or livestock etc.

The Law seems very harsh to us, as often the penalty was either banishment, excommunication or death. However God isn't stupid, for someone to actually be convicted it required at least 2 eyewitnesses, and these would have to be very sure of what they were accusing, as the penalty for a false accusation or witness was to take the falsely accused's punishment instead... This ensured absolute justice.

2. A Manual For The Priests: Rather than them just coming up with whatever they wanted, it gave a constant, consistent reference to guide the people with.

3. To Teach the People 'Righteousness': To give a constant standard to try to conform to. Obviously this was an impossible perfection to achieve, short of being God, so this lead to...

4. Revealing Sin: The people can see their short-comings, and thus there was the sacrifical system to atone for their disobedience. More on that later...

5. To Preserve Their Historical Heritage: This is where a lot of the laws about forbidden foods, and activities came from, and need to be looked at in the context of the day.

For example the tattoo law which has been mentioned a couple of times already. The reason for these laws was because God chose the nation of Israel to be a 'Holy' or seperated nation. Because they were surrounded by nations which were heavily involved in many pagan rituals etc. they would obviously become lost within these people as they were influenced by them. For these nations, tattooing was part of pagan rituals, and was used in the worship of many idols and false gods, so for them to start tattooing them selves, would've been actively partaking in these rituals, which was obviously a direct rebellion against God. Today, a tattoo isn't necessarily a direct association of antichristianity. If it is, then there's a problem. If its not, then that's up to the individual, but that alone will not determine the eternal fate of that person. Same with the laws about eating meat ("You shall not eat anything with the blood" Lev. 19:26a), its not saying you can't have your steak done rare, it means don't eat things with the life-blood still pumping through it, which was another pagan practice.

6. As An Example To Lead Towards Christ: Showing / Teaching propitiation, sacrifice etc. to prepare for the life of Jesus Christ, and for the sacrifice He was going to make in our place...



Now when Jesus came, and was teaching on earth, He used The Law to bring down the proud, and brought grace to the humble. This is important to The Gospel message which is often mistaught today. The Law is still relevant to today, in that it reveals that NO ONE is good enough to get into heaven.*

*If you think you're a good person, please take this 'test' to see if you actually measure up to God's Holy standard, it'll save time than me trying to write it all out... NeedGod.com

Ok, so I'm gonna assume you had a look at that, and obviously according to that, no-one who is human could honestly say they were going to heaven, I know I couldn't... But that's where, in God's grace, He sent His son Jesus to die as the perfect sacrifice, and because of that we now have the opportunity to spend eternity with God! However we are required to believe that God did send His Son, to die on the cross and take the penalty for our sins, which are all equal in the perfectly just eyes of God, and then to repent, that is, turn from your former life, and try to live your life according to God's will. Living this kind of life is not what will get you into Heaven, however it is the result of a genuinely changed life, and the evidence of a true conversion...

I'd encourage all of you to at least have a look and go through that NeedGod.com mini-quiz, as it uses some good analogies and examples and explains what I'm getting at fairly simply and succinctly.

This is why the Law and Grace work hand in hand, just thought I'd clarify that...
Sorry for the super long post, but i feel its important for you to hear the actual biblical viewpoint on this stuff...

 

[Groff]

I think leviticus is a joke and should not be taken seriously.

A lot of the rules seemed to be laws of the time. Cutting your hair and trimming your beard I think apply to married men. The amish don't do that once they are married, it's symbolic, like a ring.

 

[Azathoth43]

Well, according to your site there we're all going to hell anyway no matter what. So I ask whats the point? Why should anyone even worry about it?

 

[DavyH]

I think leviticus is a joke and should not be taken seriously.

A lot of the rules seemed to be laws of the time. Cutting your hair and trimming your beard I think apply to married men. The amish don't do that once they are married, it's symbolic, like a ring.

A lot of them are no more than common sense (for the time) codified. They're no longer applicable due to increased water delivery, improved hygiene standards, refrigeration and better animal husbandry, but the Jewish faith holds them as traditional.

 

[Metal Ken]

Think about it, Ken. Who was Jesus' fiercest enemy? Rome? Satan? Sinners? Nope.

The Levites, Pharisees, and all the conservative, religious leaders of his day.

Those damn conservatives.

Well, i guess we just have a fundamental difference in interpretation of Jesus. Many of the so called apocryphal books of the bible paint a not-so-hot picture of jesus, and thats why they were left out. when taken into account, those form jesus into a radically different character.

 

[Metal Ken]

First lets look at the law:


The Law seems very harsh to us, as often the penalty was either banishment, excommunication or death. However God isn't stupid, for someone to actually be convicted it required at least 2 eyewitnesses, and these would have to be very sure of what they were accusing, as the penalty for a false accusation or witness was to take the falsely accused's punishment instead... This ensured absolute justice.

How does that ensure absolute justice. A Bunch of people can decide that they don't like a guy can be like "Well, jebidiah, we all saw him riding a broom and kissing satan at a sabbat!" Bam, he did it, according to the court. Welcome to the witch trials.

5. To Preserve Their Historical Heritage: This is where a lot of the laws about forbidden foods, and activities came from, and need to be looked at in the context of the day.

So when does this stop applying? Like i said before, jesus said he didnt come to abolish the laws of the prophets, but to uphold them, and he who casts them aside shall be last in the kingdom of heaven. If anything, that further reinforces those laws to christians thereafter. It appears that the idea that the old testament was wiped away was a Pauline idea.

For example the tattoo law which has been mentioned a couple of times already. The reason for these laws was because God chose the nation of Israel to be a 'Holy' or seperated nation. Because they were surrounded by nations which were heavily involved in many pagan rituals etc. they would obviously become lost within these people as they were influenced by them. For these nations, tattooing was part of pagan rituals, and was used in the worship of many idols and false gods, so for them to start tattooing them selves, would've been actively partaking in these rituals, which was obviously a direct rebellion against God. Today, a tattoo isn't necessarily a direct association of antichristianity. If it is, then there's a problem. If its not, then that's up to the individual, but that alone will not determine the eternal fate of that person. Same with the laws about eating meat ("You shall not eat anything with the blood" Lev. 19:26a), its not saying you can't have your steak done rare, it means don't eat things with the life-blood still pumping through it, which was another pagan practice.

Well, even if you don't associate it with pagan practices, it still has its roots in pagan rituals. There's no repealing of the law of no tattoos. I dont think anywhere in the bible, it condones them. every mention of them is negative. Furthermore, who are you to accuse other gods of being "false"? They're no more real or fake then your god. Was it dawkins (i forget) who said "You and i are both atheists. Look at why you discounted all the other gods except yours. I just went one further", or something to that effect...

6. As An Example To Lead Towards Christ: Showing / Teaching propitiation, sacrifice etc. to prepare for the life of Jesus Christ, and for the sacrifice He was going to make in our place...

Now when Jesus came, and was teaching on earth, He used The Law to bring down the proud, and brought grace to the humble. This is important to The Gospel message which is often mistaught today. The Law is still relevant to today, in that it reveals that NO ONE is good enough to get into heaven.*


*If you think you're a good person, please take this 'test' to see if you actually measure up to God's Holy standard, it'll save time than me trying to write it all out... NeedGod.com

The idea of sacrifice seems to be scare tactics to me. Not so much in and of itself, its just that people do it out of fear. They'd rather put innocent animals to death instead of themselves. That seems very selfish to me. And then the idea that some guy came and died for my sins? Why? they're my sins. I should be punished for them. Thats like the equivalent of blaming your brother for stealing and letting him go to jail for it. That's not right. Just so, no innocent dude should have been put to death on my behalf. If there's a hell for sinners, i'll burn for my own sins.

Ok, so I'm gonna assume you had a look at that, and obviously according to that, no-one who is human could honestly say they were going to heaven, I know I couldn't... But that's where, in God's grace, He sent His son Jesus to die as the perfect sacrifice, and because of that we now have the opportunity to spend eternity with God!

Like i said, i wouldnt want some innocent dude to die for me because of my sins. Thats selfish to put someone else in my place to be some kind of whipping boy. It doesnt teach me anything. And furthermore, a god that demands eternal hellfire for something as simple as not accepting a scapegoat for your crimes against him seems like a very unjust god. That all sins are forgiven for simply believing? what does that teach people? Live a life of sin and have a deathbed conversion? where's the pride in that?

 

[Ancestor]

I agree with everything except the bit about cross-breeding animals. Ha!

Hey, why do you think there's a new testament? Hell was like totally overbooked man.

 

[JJ Rodriguez]

*If you think you're a good person, please take this 'test' to see if you actually measure up to God's Holy standard, it'll save time than me trying to write it all out... NeedGod.com

That's the thing, I'm a good person by MY standards. I don't feel the need to live up to anyone else's. Of course I'm not going to live up to this "god" dude's standards. I don't need a book or some quiz to tell me I'm not worthy, and that everything I do and enjoy is a crime against some cosmic entity. I feel confident in my own choices and don't need to justify my actions with anything else than "fuck it" or "I felt like it", or worry about whether or not they're wrong. Shit happens.

EDIT: This should probably go in the lounge since it's pretty much turned into another religious debate

 

[DavyH]

Got this a minute ago, almost on topic:

Sunday school teacher was testing children in a Glasgow Sunday school
class to see if they understood the concept of getting to Heaven

She asked them, 'If I sold my house and my car, had a big jumble sale
and gave all my money to the church, would that get me into Heaven?'

'NO!' the children answered.

'If I cleaned the church every day, mowed the garden, and kept
everything tidy, would that get me into heaven?'

Again, the answer was 'No!'

By now she was starting to smile.

'Well then, if I was kind to animals and gave sweeties to all the
children and loved my husband, would that get me into Heaven?'

Again they all answered 'No!'

She was just bursting with pride for them.

Well she continued, 'then how can I get into Heaven?

*
A six year-old Glasgow boy shouted out, YUV GOTTAE BE FUCKN' DEED YA MUPPET*

 

[JJ Rodriguez]

Nice

 

[Carrion]

I'd encourage all of you to at least have a look and go through that NeedGod.com mini-quiz, as it uses some good analogies and examples and explains what I'm getting at fairly simply and succinctly.

This is why the Law and Grace work hand in hand, just thought I'd clarify that...
Sorry for the super long post, but i feel its important for you to hear the actual biblical viewpoint on this stuff...

I also found this in that site:

Troubleshooing

"If you feel intimidated by atheists -- if you think they are "intellectuals," read the book, God Doesn't Believe in Atheists. It will show you that they are the opposite. It will also instruct you on how you can prove God's existence, and also prove that the "atheist" doesn't exist."

so I follow the link to no other than:

God Doesn't Believe in Atheists: Living Waters Store

God Doesn't Believe in Atheists

Written by, Ray Comfort aka Mr. Banana man:

 

[JJ Rodriguez]

Everytime I see that video, I can't help but think that it actually proves the opposite, that we evolved from apes

 

[hairychris]

Just read the NeedGod link. Weird. Am I a good person by God's standards?

Well... I haven't committed genocide, demanded human sacrifice, and generally acted a lot like a spoilt child which a lot of the OT big man seems to enjoy doing.

And Q8 is irrelevant. Do I worship other gods before the biblical god? Nope. But I don't worship him/her/it (ah... OT god is definitely a bloke) either. Crap, I don't even believe in heaven or hell so the whole question is moot as far as I'm concerned!

Hey ho!

And as for this: God Doesn't Believe in Atheists: Living Waters Store

Errrrr, right.

I hope that the author is aware that 'atheism' is the absence of belief, not a positive statement. FWIW all new-born babies are atheists by default/definition. They are incapable of understanding belief, hence cannot believe themselves... (certain parallel to heretical Anabaptist thought there but never mind)

Although, as an atheist, I will say that the chances of a god existing as described by the bible is very, very, VERY improbable. See Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and the criticisms therein.

I'd better get off this subject before I start gibbering.

 

[Metal Ken]

Just read the NeedGod link. Weird. Am I a good person by God's standards?

i just took it for the hell of it. Its funny, its holding everyone to old testament commandments, which we just spent an entire thread arguing about how they don't apply nowdays