US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

[narad]

This makes your president sound intelligent

I don't even want to point out that the rates quoted aren't "% that the person will kill themselves", they are % suicide out of all other causes of death (i.e., out of people dead today). If you served in Afghanistan or Iraq you are still pretty young and most likely alive today, making that number terribly misleading. With this many errors in reading and setting up probabilities, at this point you might as well just make up the numbers completely.

I mean, I really wish we could somehow test these things before allowing people to vote. Why give weight to one's opinion if they cannot understand the information presented to them?

 

[MetalHex]

I don't even want to point out that the rates quoted aren't "% that the person will kill themselves", they are % suicide out of all other causes of death (i.e., out of people dead today). If you served in Afghanistan or Iraq you are still pretty young and most likely alive today, making that number terribly misleading. With this many errors in reading and setting up probabilities, at this point you might as well just make up the numbers completely.

I mean, I really wish we could somehow test these things before allowing people to vote. Why give weight to one's opinion if they cannot understand the information presented to them?

Ah, so you missed the part that explained what percentage of those deaths were suicides in the past years. That explains your misunderstanding. And although it doesnt give a direct percentage for future suicide projections, the numbers do show that the suicide percentage will in fact rise, as has been rising every year. So it makes sense that with PTSD added with mental disorders like gender confusion, (since there is a higher suicide rate for those people) will only add to the increase in overall suicide rates, due directly to metal disorders, which is a good reason to not let those people join the military, but you must have glazed over the last link entirely, as those 5 reasons are the "official" reasons, which is seperate from my assumption.

 

[StevenC]

Ah, so you missed the part that explained what percentage of those deaths were suicides in the past years. That explains your misunderstanding. And although it doesnt give a direct percentage for future suicide projections, the numbers do show that the suicide percentage will in fact rise, as has been rising every year. So it makes sense that with PTSD added with mental disorders like gender confusion, (since there is a higher suicide rate for those people) will only add to the increase in overall suicide rates, due directly to metal disorders, which is a good reason to not let those people join the military, but you must have glazed over the last link entirely, as those 5 reasons are the "official" reasons, which is seperate from my assumption.

So do transgender people kill themselves because of their "mental disorder" or because of discrimination?

 

[narad]

Ah, so you missed the part that explained what percentage of those deaths were suicides in the past years. That explains your misunderstanding.

Well I understood about 80% of the two things, so by your logic I have in total a 160% understanding of these issues. Now, for my next magic trick...

 

[MetalHex]

So do transgender people kill themselves because of their "mental disorder" or because of discrimination?

Black people get discriminated against alot (according to democrats anyway) and their suicide rate is lower (much lower I believe). Discrimination is a poor excuse.

 

[MetalHex]

Well I understood about 80% of the two things, so by your logic I have in total a 160% understanding of these issues. Now, for my next magic trick...

Ok i see where my logic was wrong now. That doesnt change the fact that their suicide rates are higher, with or without the military

 

[narad]

Ok i see where my logic was wrong now. That doesnt change the fact that their suicide rates are higher, with or without the military

That's true, but why do you bring it up? Do you think people with high(er) rates of suicide shouldn't be allowed to serve in the military? By that reasoning...

Black people get discriminated against alot (according to democrats anyway) and their suicide rate is lower (much lower I believe).

It's true. Blacks have a much lower risk of suicide compared to transgender (not that these are mutually exclusive). But white men have a much higher rate of suicide than blacks, also. Should we prohibit white men from serving in the military? If risk of suicide is your yardstick, it just makes sense to exclude these people.

Or maybe we could look at things on a per-person basis and not group tens of millions of people as "a thing".

 

[MetalHex]

That's true, but why do you bring it up? Do you think people with high(er) rates of suicide shouldn't be allowed to serve in the military? By that reasoning...



It's true. Blacks have a much lower risk of suicide compared to transgender (not that these are mutually exclusive). But white men have a much higher rate of suicide than blacks, also. Should we prohibit white men from serving in the military? If risk of suicide is your yardstick, it just makes sense to exclude these people.

Or maybe we could look at things on a per-person basis and not group tens of millions of people as "a thing".

But white males in the military have a high suicide rate because of something that develops into a mental disorder. Transgender people are already coming in with a known mental disorder. Slightly different.

Ok I'll meet you halfway if we should hypothetically take it by a person by person case. For everyone that tells the doctor "yes I am depressed", we should treat that the same as someone who tells the doctor "yes I am transgender"; and raise a red flag..

 

[narad]

But white males in the military have a high suicide rate because of something that develops into a mental disorder. Transgender people are already coming in with a known mental disorder. Slightly different.

Ok I'll meet you halfway if we should hypothetically take it by a person by person case. For everyone that tells the doctor "yes I am depressed", we should treat that the same as someone who tells the doctor "yes I am transgender"; and raise a red flag..

No, white males in general have a much higher suicide rate than black males.

I feel that we should not allow a group as mentally unstable as white men to serve in the military.

 

[Yul Brynner]

I spent three years in Iraq between 2003 and 2009. I committed suicide in 2010 and I'll do it again if I have to.

 

[USMarine75]

which is a good reason to not let those people join the military,

1. Were you under the assumption the military has actual psychological pre-screening?
2. The military hasn't exactly had a long history of inclusion...

"The USMC opened its doors to blacks in June 1942, with the acceptance of African Americans as recruits in segregated all-black units. Other races were accepted somewhat more easily, joining white Marine units. For the next few decades, the incorporation of black troops was not widely accepted within the Corps, nor was desegregation smoothly or quickly achieved. [T]he integration of non-white USMC personnel proceeded in stages from segregated battalions in 1942, to unified training in 1949, and finally full integration in 1960."

I spent three years in Iraq between 2003 and 2009. I committed suicide in 2010 and I'll do it again if I have to.

"A 2009 U.S. Army report indicates military veterans have double the suicide rate of non-veterans, and more active-duty soldiers have died from suicide than in combat in the Iraq War (2003–2011) and War in Afghanistan (2001–present)."

I have a dark sense of humour myself, and I want to find your joke funny, but man you went awfully dark with that one...

 

[Flappydoodle]

The problem with that line of thought, though, is it ignores the other half of Trump's international policy. Does Trump want NATO members to spend more? He's said so repeatedly. But, he's said so repeatedly while threatening to pull out of NATO because he thinks its an outdated relic of the Cold War that the US spends far too much supporting. He's similarly critical of the UN and DID pull us out of the Human Rights Council, he's opposed to international free trade agreements, he's questioned the authority of the International Court of Justice, he's weakened US commitments to the IMF, and he's ceeded leadership on climate change to the EU and the Chinese. It'd be one thing if Trump seemed like he was legitimately trying to make the post-war international system stronger, but he's not - he's trying to weaken it, and weaken the US's commitment to the rest of the world as the acting global policeman. Whether or not that's something you personally like or dislike, a weaker international order with a power vacuum is absolutely something that works in the favor of an ex global superpower with its eye on becoming resurgent.

So, yeah, the primary goal was to spread political discord in the United States and weaken the democratic institutions of this country... But there's a reason Putin actively sought to promote Trump, and not Clinton, in the election - an United States with Trump as president would create a LOT more opportunity for Russia than one with Clinton.

With Trump, I think we should have all learned by now that what Trump SAYS and DOES are different.

He has definitely criticised NATO, but he has also said "I love NATO" and "I think NATO is great" multiple times. He says a bunch of stuff depending on where he is, so I don't think it's very clear what his real opinion is - or whether it matters. Because when it comes to action, he hasn't really done anything of substance, especially in relation to NATO. He postponed exercises with S Korea (but they aren't in NATO). The Human Rights Council is a joke, and the US still sits on the permanent Security Council, which is the only part of the UN which actually matters.

At the end of the day, who cares whether he's trying to do this or that - if other countries actually spent 2% GDP on defence, NATO would be MASSIVELY better funded, far more powerful, a stronger deterrent against Russia, and that would be the single most significant change in world power balance that could feasibly happen.

It's not as far gone as that - there's SOME bipartisanship in Washington, but it's definitely at the lowest level in my lifetime. That's a process that began with Newt Gingrich and his Contract With America, though, and if Putin sped that up, it wasn't by much. Russia's focus wasn't elected officials, though - they were fanning partisanship at the voter level.

Agree. But so many decisions now are simply split along party lines - whether in congress, the senate, and even court decisions. Not just bills, but cabinet appointments, judicial appointments etc. Maybe some of it is personal, but another part of it is that no Democrat wants to "support" Trump in any way by approving his cabinet/judge picks. Hardcore activist voters will crucify them for any single action which isn't "resist". So there's very little incentive for bipartisanship until middle ground people start to become vocal.

 

[bostjan]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/na...r-comments-says-he-has-no-moral-authority.amp

I am awful sick of these personal attacks on Omar. I've lost track of how many times a quote of hers was altered and misrepresented. The president attacks her publicly for her religion. I guess we can forget about freedom of religion.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/na...r-comments-says-he-has-no-moral-authority.amp

I am awful sick of these personal attacks on Omar. I've lost track of how many times a quote of hers was altered and misrepresented. The president attacks her publicly for her religion. I guess we can forget about freedom of religion.

This is probably the least surprising thing in the Hellscape that is modern political theater.

Remember, it's freedom of religion so long as it's the same as mine.

Meet the next generation of GOP hypocritical shitfucks: https://www.nydailynews.com/news/po...0190411-qs7sbccinbd4zhirps2d7g6wpm-story.html

 

[Yul Brynner]

1. Were you under the assumption the military has actual psychological pre-screening?
2. The military hasn't exactly had a long history of inclusion...

"The USMC opened its doors to blacks in June 1942, with the acceptance of African Americans as recruits in segregated all-black units. Other races were accepted somewhat more easily, joining white Marine units. For the next few decades, the incorporation of black troops was not widely accepted within the Corps, nor was desegregation smoothly or quickly achieved. [T]he integration of non-white USMC personnel proceeded in stages from segregated battalions in 1942, to unified training in 1949, and finally full integration in 1960."



"A 2009 U.S. Army report indicates military veterans have double the suicide rate of non-veterans, and more active-duty soldiers have died from suicide than in combat in the Iraq War (2003–2011) and War in Afghanistan (2001–present)."

I have a dark sense of humour myself, and I want to find your joke funny, but man you went awfully dark with that one...

I'm actually the last one left of my "generation" my class and a few years above and below mine. There were a few of us that joined the army and wound up in the war. They've all been shooting themselves over the years. Idk it's almost like they put something in the malaria pills we were force-fed or the unapproved anthrax shots we were forced to take or any of the other shit we were used as guinea pigs for...
There is a surprising number of people from my unit shooting themselves too. I think it has a lot to do with reintegration. Being over there outside the American bubble for a long time makes people realize how fucked up it is when they come back and try to deal with society.

 

[Ralyks]

This has devolved into Steiner Math...

 

[MetalHex]

I'm actually the last one left of my "generation" my class and a few years above and below mine. There were a few of us that joined the army and wound up in the war. They've all been shooting themselves over the years. Idk it's almost like they put something in the malaria pills we were force-fed or the unapproved anthrax shots we were forced to take or any of the other shit we were used as guinea pigs for...
There is a surprising number of people from my unit shooting themselves too. I think it has a lot to do with reintegration. Being over there outside the American bubble for a long time makes people realize how fucked up it is when they come back and try to deal with society.

War is indeed a racket

 

[USMarine75]

I'm actually the last one left of my "generation" my class and a few years above and below mine. There were a few of us that joined the army and wound up in the war. They've all been shooting themselves over the years. Idk it's almost like they put something in the malaria pills we were force-fed or the unapproved anthrax shots we were forced to take or any of the other shit we were used as guinea pigs for...
There is a surprising number of people from my unit shooting themselves too. I think it has a lot to do with reintegration. Being over there outside the American bubble for a long time makes people realize how fucked up it is when they come back and try to deal with society.

For years the military, and its civilian oversight, have been aware they do an incredible job of reprogramming post-teen young adults from boys into killers, with instant obedience to orders, selflessness, and going from 0-10 instantly. They've only now started to implement programs on how to reverse that, so that we can reintegrate ourselves back into society. I remember going through the transition assistance program (TAP or DTAP) when I got out forever ago, and it was just 3-5 days of how to apply for jobs and write a resume. Nothing about how not to grab the holiday CD on the counter at Starbucks and thrust it between C3 and C4 of the barista's neck for messing up your order.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

It's pretty sad that "because we're so awful to LGBT people, and all soldiers regardless of such" is being used as an excuse here. Shame.

I thought the LGBT in the military thing was because Gender Dysphoria is technically classified as a mental illness?
Not saying I agree with the policy, but technically, I suppose that checks out as far as what's on the books. That's what I heard, anyway.

Still seems backwards to me though that there wouldn't be an exemption made for that. I don't really think there's any room to tell people that they aren't fit for service unless they're literally mentally incompetent enough to get someone killed.

But we're living in clown world these days, so who the hell knows.

So do transgender people kill themselves because of their "mental disorder" or because of discrimination?

I don't know, I'm not a transgender individual with persistent suicidal thoughts. Are you?
Is it that much of a stretch to think that perhaps some of these people realize that they've made a decision that can't really be undone, and for some of them, that's overwhelming?
Is it entirely unrealistic to think that perhaps someone eventually wanted children, only to realize that they can't due to a decision that they made?
What if [HOT TAKE INCOMING] there's a person that probably shouldn't have transitioned? What if someone "it's not a phase mom"-ed their way into irreversibly changing their entire life? Could you imagine the regret?

Holy hell what must that feel like.
Take a second to imagine that you made the decision to transition, and now 5 years later you regret your decision.
Just imagine the existential dread.

This notion that negative results are always directly someone else's fault need to stop. This isn't a game. People need to understand that the decision to transition is a serious, serious decision not to be taken lightly by ANY stretch of the imagination- and is one that can have severe consequences if handled improperly.

 

[spudmunkey]

Two genuine questions:

1. in all of the conversation here surrounding "trans"...does it actually only refer to "post-op", and doesn't also include someone living their life as one gender, but hasn't had sex re-assignment/confirmation surgery?

2. The categorizing of gender dyphoria as a mental illness is a whole 'nother conversation...but as long as it is the case, is there still no non-combat roles that could be effectively performed by someone with this "condition" (as it were)? Are there no millitary-employed mess-hall staff? Mailroom employees? Translators? Data analysts? I kinda fall into a similar line of thinking with "gay marriage", where there should be no legal limitations for legal marriage between two people, but then individual churches can still also have their own ceremonies according to their own beliefs. But at the same time, I do realize that it's a slippery slope to "separate but equal" *shivers*.