Kiesel --- Never Again!

[Jeff]

Hey, in my day we didn't try to use journal citations to call someone an idiot. You just had to lay it all out there and take your negative rep.

You’re right. “Fucking idiot” is more appropriate.

 

[Jeff]

I mean, my thoughts on the situation are simple. Guy bought guitar. Guitar was woefully mismatched (all seem to agree.) Customer was rightfully put off by it (all seem to agree.) Customer brings it up. Jeff insulted the customer, which is unprofessional and uncalled for. (All seem to agree.)

I don't like giving business to someone who insults the people who put money in their pockets, especially when the customer was in fact right. I don't think anyone should. We certainly shouldn't pretend it's okay, especially when the guy has shown a pattern of this behavior.

Then again, I guess it doesn't matter unless it happens to you. It's all fun and games until you personally get flexed on by a man-child in the wrong.

It has all happened before, and will happen again. The amount of JeffBro remorse will be equal to the amount of bad press. He’s only sorry because it stirred up a shitstorm.

 

[spudmunkey]

"The follow up"

 

[Jeff]

"The follow up"

Regardless of my feelings about Jeff Kiesel, these mob mentality YouTube videos are just stupid. Jeff said enough dumb things in his first video, they don’t need commentary. Jeff apologized in the next, and you either believe it or not.
I felt the same way when people shitpiled Rob Chapman. I didn’t even necessary disagree with the sentiment, but really? You don’t have anything else to do with your time?

 

[_MonSTeR_]

For those who don't have time to read the between the details of amateur psychology hour...



TL;DR 1) - did Kiesel admit the guitar didn't have a roasted maple fingerboard, or is that not of importance anymore?

TL;DR 2) - I'm completely unfamiliar with this KDH guy? Who actually is he? A member here or just another random long haired dude looking to make a name for himself? There are cats with 100 times more subscribers than he has, so why do we as SSO care what he has to say on the matter?

 

[spudmunkey]

TL;DR 2) - I'm completely unfamiliar with this KDH guy? Who actually is he? A member here or just another random long haired dude looking to make a name for himself? There are cats with 100 times more subscribers than he has, so why do we as SSO care what he has to say on the matter?

Why should subscriber count be the arbiter of whether his point is valid or not? Fox News is the #1 most watched "news" network.

 

[Frosty the Snowperson]

I saw a video on the Dunning-Kruger Effect, so that pretty much makes me an expert in psychology now.

 

[mbardu]

TL;DR 1) - did Kiesel admit the guitar didn't have a roasted maple fingerboard, or is that not of importance anymore?

I doubt they will admit that, because I 99% believe it is indeed roasted maple.
Their roasting process is certainly quite light compared to what others do, so it wouldn't surprise me that it can produce very light colored pieces. They say it's because roasting more made the wood too brittle- choose to believe it or not, up to you (in SSO I guess everything Kiesel says is a lie..), but that's their argument.
Not saying anything about the match- everyone agree the match was terrible.

TL;DR 2) - I'm completely unfamiliar with this KDH guy? Who actually is he? A member here or just another random long haired dude looking to make a name for himself? There are cats with 100 times more subscribers than he has, so why do we as SSO care what he has to say on the matter?

He's not particularly popular, but if he's saying bad things about Kiesel, he'll be seen as a prophet here. But just watch for people forgetting all about him the moment he'll say anything positive about Jeff, like in his followup

 

[Jonathan20022]

I appreciate the wall of text, but I am just going to go back to your main point "What do you gain as a supporter, by reinforcing..." to ask you to point me even a single instance where I did that. If you can find even one instance I'll correct it, if not you'll see you're beating the same dead horse as the others (everybody agrees with: 1-very bad match, 2-bad customer service decision, 3-Jeff).
By saying "Jeff is the only person who can validate the neck's categorization", you are agreeing exactly with the only point I was making (nobody on the internet can say one way or another) and negating the need for the rest of your argument.
Even in the last page, people are still trying to make that point without any proof and I just like to point out that no, they in fact cannot. Even if you are the proud owner of a random guitar with a regular maple fretboard, you cannot just decide the materials in someone else's guitar through pictures from the internet.
Why this equate to "hur dur this guy is a Kiesel fanboy who likes Jeff and their customer service" (which again, nobody said) is beyond me.

My guy, you absolutely can use your eyes to identify wood in the place of a lack of evidence. It's proven because you will not find an authentic example of roasted maple, even in it's lightest form that is as pale as the Kiesel provided board. This is such a weird point to harp on, the examples Jeff showed in his own Livestream.



You will not find an example of genuinely roasted maple like this, my RG550 Maple Neck/FB is darker than the fretboard on the right. You're 100% being disingenuous by feigning ignorance here, and since you'll never concede on the point and Jeff is probably never going to entertain this argument/train of thought, you're taking advantage of that to pivot your entire argument.

Sure you have the ability to not "lose" the argument, but you look incredibly ignorant saying there's a chance that could be roasted maple when there is reason to doubt it. Do you think the ability to be suspicious or make assumptions has no value?

And since you want "direct quotes", enjoy.

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-190#post-5125527

You contradict yourself here, you admit that something is wrong with enough certainty (100%), that it warrants an unwavering response from CS to go above and beyond and just fix the issue. Then the next paragraph is in a subliminal sense victim blaming,

"If you want the full return policy with 0 risk, then don't order something non returnable or with a restock fee."

If your guitar arrives in, either poor condition, or not as you requested and agreed. Your return policy as a manufacturer does not matter. You did not deliver, and by law your client has a right to pursue a warranty fix (New Neck like the customer first suggested), or a refund. This is different from buyer's remorse, which is the real reason Option 50 exists, if you custom order an off the menu option and it's delivered as intended. You cannot just change your mind and expect the manufacturer to take a hit on the option.

You play in both camps, you understand that Jeff's response and handling of it was not good, but at the same time you want to make the claim that it technically is still a roasted wood at the same time. That's not how this works, if I order a specific fretwire and get the wrong size I have every right to complain about it. Even if it takes some measurement to prove that what was put on my guitar isn't what I requested.

I'm not spending an entire hour sifting through your comments if you don't have the courtesy to address the points I laid out previously. I have very little faith in how you present your arguments, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

[soliloquy]

So, it appears that folks on the ESP fanpage of Facebook have caught on:

 

[mbardu]

My guy, you absolutely can use your eyes to identify wood in the place of a lack of evidence. It's proven because you will not find an authentic example of roasted maple, even in it's lightest form that is as pale as the Kiesel provided board. This is such a weird point to harp on, the examples Jeff showed in his own Livestream.

View attachment 79807

You will not find an example of genuinely roasted maple like this, my RG550 Maple Neck/FB is darker than the fretboard on the right. You're 100% being disingenuous by feigning ignorance here, and since you'll never concede on the point and Jeff is probably never going to entertain this argument/train of thought, you're taking advantage of that to pivot your entire argument.

Sure you have the ability to not "lose" the argument, but you look incredibly ignorant saying there's a chance that could be roasted maple when there is reason to doubt it. Do you think the ability to be suspicious or make assumptions has no value?

And since you want "direct quotes", enjoy.

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-190#post-5125527

You contradict yourself here, you admit that something is wrong with enough certainty (100%), that it warrants an unwavering response from CS to go above and beyond and just fix the issue. Then the next paragraph is in a subliminal sense victim blaming,

"If you want the full return policy with 0 risk, then don't order something non returnable or with a restock fee."

If your guitar arrives in, either poor condition, or not as you requested and agreed. Your return policy as a manufacturer does not matter. You did not deliver, and by law your client has a right to pursue a warranty fix (New Neck like the customer first suggested), or a refund. This is different from buyer's remorse, which is the real reason Option 50 exists, if you custom order an off the menu option and it's delivered as intended. You cannot just change your mind and expect the manufacturer to take a hit on the option.

You play in both camps, you understand that Jeff's response and handling of it was not good, but at the same time you want to make the claim that it technically is still a roasted wood at the same time. That's not how this works, if I order a specific fretwire and get the wrong size I have every right to complain about it. Even if it takes some measurement to prove that what was put on my guitar isn't what I requested.

I'm not spending an entire hour sifting through your comments if you don't have the courtesy to address the points I laid out previously. I have very little faith in how you present your arguments, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Believe what you want but I am 100% genuine here. I have regular maple boards that look darker than the one in the "roasted" picture, but I also have regular maple boards that look lighter. I don't use that to pretend that I know 100% what another guitar's board is made of either way. I only argue that we cannot know - which I thought you would agree with since you say it's good to have healthy doubts. Yet my only beef is with people trying to pretend that they do know 100% either way through a picture on the internet- and you have no problem at all with those others having 0 doubt on the matter as long as that suits your bias. Is it not required to have reasonable doubt when it goes against Kiesel?

I have no idea where you see contradiction when I say "if something is 100% wrong, CS should act". I stand by that.
If Jeff boasted that he sent the client a non-roasted board and that the client would just have to suck it up? Or if it was indeed a measurable objective thing like a different fretwire or wrong headstock? No question at all! But we just don't know, and judging based on a photo with 0 proof, and declaring as fact that they built the guitar with regular maple just because someone's Ibanez maple board is lighter is something else.
And the two ideas above are not mutually exclusive.

I don't get your point about warranty fix either. If the guitar did not play properly, had an issue with electronics (or anything else functional, really), then this would fall under "warranty fix" and would be 100% covered. "Not looking exactly like expected" is not a warranty matter, is it? And it would almost never be (you keep speaking legally) for anything that's one-off or commissioned. With Kiesel, the policy is very clear for "not looking like you expected it to", it is either 1-return it for 0$ if you didn't go with any special options, 2-return it with a restock fee if you had picked options with a restock fee (the case here), or 3-not being able to return it because of specifically picking non returnable options. We'd all like to order custom non returnable options and still have a no-risk return policy, but that's not a thing (and I should say that's not a thing anywhere). Hence my advice to people to not order non-returnable things.
Nothing to do with warranty, which is 5 years on all guitars and which will be honored for absolutely anything wrong outside of cosmetics/looks.

Really- I'm not forcing you to re-read all my comments. But if you truly had a point I didn't address I'd happily respond to it.

 

[_MonSTeR_]

Why should subscriber count be the arbiter of whether his point is valid or not? Fox News is the #1 most watched "news" network.

What I’m asking, is what basis is there for posting his video in this thread? Why is his video valid? Reliable? Accurate? Or is he just some guy with a microphone and a camera deciding to claim his 15 seconds of fame. Did the guy post his own video in this thread? To use your analogy...How do we know his opinion would be any more valid than that of Fox News? Or to use mine, one of the oversubscribed cats?

 

[mbardu]

What I’m asking, is what basis is there for posting his video in this thread? Why is his video valid? Reliable? Accurate? Or is he just some guy with a microphone and a camera deciding to claim his 15 seconds of fame. Did the guy post his own video in this thread? To use your analogy...How do we know his opinion would be any more valid than that of Fox News? Or to use mine, one of the oversubscribed cats?

This opinion is not particularly valid. He makes some true points by rehashing some known facts, but a lot of things are also quite dishonest in his video so it's a wash. He even had to make his own apology in his followup. The basis to post it here though is that if it goes against Kiesel, anything and everything goes- whereas if you don't 100% sh*t on everything related to that one brand in particular, you are a automatically fanboi and it's not even worth trying to understand your arguments

 

[G_3_3_k_]

I know people way too well (not Jeff personally) to spot a pattern.

Jeff isn't that stupid of a businessman that he'd risk his company, and is willing to do a lot to rectify the situation. But this is really just only PR. This is kinda comparable to an oil company that gladly ruins a town's environment, and uses lawyers to fight the complaining citizens. When the situation goes really public, and politicians start to wake up to the disaster, and the company would be potentially facing 500 million in damages - then you would see them making a real "heartfelt" apology, offering to clean the town's sewage systems, rebuild and relocate the town's school, and promise never to pollute the environment again. Now, why would the oil company do this? Because it's convenient and needed. They have to, otherwise they won't have a business to run anymore. And that "apology" saves them a lot of money.

In the last couple of years I've really started to appreciate solid core values among companies and individuals. They dictate how you act when no one is watching, and how consistent you are with your behavior.
In the case of Kiesel, if you imagine ten difficult situations with employees and customers, and think how Jeff would act and treat people... yeah, I don't really think he'd be an exemplary role model.

I just think that Jeff is an insecure person with power, which makes him act like a bully. When you get an apology video like this - when it's needed and convenient - it's just a part of the pattern. I still won't buy their guitars. Not until the company's culture (and hopefully management) makes a lasting change.

He's not. You can only view people based on their actions, not based on their intentions. To prepare yourself for an interaction based on what they say rather than how they act is foolhardy. Jeff IS an asshole until he proves otherwise.

Believe what you want but I am 100% genuine here. I have regular maple boards that look darker than the one in the "roasted" picture, but I also have regular maple boards that look lighter. I don't use that to pretend that I know 100% what another guitar's board is made of either way. I only argue that we cannot know - which I thought you would agree with since you say it's good to have healthy doubts. Yet my only beef is with people trying to pretend that they do know 100% either way through a picture on the internet- and you have no problem at all with those others having 0 doubt on the matter as long as that suits your bias. Is it not required to have reasonable doubt when it goes against Kiesel?

I have no idea where you see contradiction when I say "if something is 100% wrong, CS should act". I stand by that.
If Jeff boasted that he sent the client a non-roasted board and that the client would just have to suck it up? Or if it was indeed a measurable objective thing like a different fretwire or wrong headstock? No question at all! But we just don't know, and judging based on a photo with 0 proof, and declaring as fact that they built the guitar with regular maple just because someone's Ibanez maple board is lighter is something else.
And the two ideas above are not mutually exclusive.

I don't get your point about warranty fix either. If the guitar did not play properly, had an issue with electronics (or anything else functional, really), then this would fall under "warranty fix" and would be 100% covered. "Not looking exactly like expected" is not a warranty matter, is it? And it would almost never be (you keep speaking legally) for anything that's one-off or commissioned. With Kiesel, the policy is very clear for "not looking like you expected it to", it is either 1-return it for 0$ if you didn't go with any special options, 2-return it with a restock fee if you had picked options with a restock fee (the case here), or 3-not being able to return it because of specifically picking non returnable options. We'd all like to order custom non returnable options and still have a no-risk return policy, but that's not a thing (and I should say that's not a thing anywhere). Hence my advice to people to not order non-returnable things.
Nothing to do with warranty, which is 5 years on all guitars and which will be honored for absolutely anything wrong outside of cosmetics/looks.

Really- I'm not forcing you to re-read all my comments. But if you truly had a point I didn't address I'd happily respond to it.

Go do a google search for "Kiesel Roasted Maple Fretboards" and look at every one that Kiesel photographed themselves. They're all nearly perfectly consistent with what would visibly be considered Roasted Maple. Its OBVIOUS. There's not one that leaves room for questioning. If you can look at all of that preponderance of evidence, and still claim there isn't room to question whether or not it was roasted, you need glasses.

Here, I did it for you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=kie...wKHWxlCf8Q9QEwAnoECAkQFw#imgrc=U67UYgJOrNMoUM:

 

[lewis]

Believe what you want but I am 100% genuine here. I have regular maple boards that look darker than the one in the "roasted" picture, but I also have regular maple boards that look lighter. I don't use that to pretend that I know 100% what another guitar's board is made of either way. I only argue that we cannot know - which I thought you would agree with since you say it's good to have healthy doubts. Yet my only beef is with people trying to pretend that they do know 100% either way through a picture on the internet- and you have no problem at all with those others having 0 doubt on the matter as long as that suits your bias. Is it not required to have reasonable doubt when it goes against Kiesel?

I have no idea where you see contradiction when I say "if something is 100% wrong, CS should act". I stand by that.
If Jeff boasted that he sent the client a non-roasted board and that the client would just have to suck it up? Or if it was indeed a measurable objective thing like a different fretwire or wrong headstock? No question at all! But we just don't know, and judging based on a photo with 0 proof, and declaring as fact that they built the guitar with regular maple just because someone's Ibanez maple board is lighter is something else.
And the two ideas above are not mutually exclusive.

I don't get your point about warranty fix either. If the guitar did not play properly, had an issue with electronics (or anything else functional, really), then this would fall under "warranty fix" and would be 100% covered. "Not looking exactly like expected" is not a warranty matter, is it? And it would almost never be (you keep speaking legally) for anything that's one-off or commissioned. With Kiesel, the policy is very clear for "not looking like you expected it to", it is either 1-return it for 0$ if you didn't go with any special options, 2-return it with a restock fee if you had picked options with a restock fee (the case here), or 3-not being able to return it because of specifically picking non returnable options. We'd all like to order custom non returnable options and still have a no-risk return policy, but that's not a thing (and I should say that's not a thing anywhere). Hence my advice to people to not order non-returnable things.
Nothing to do with warranty, which is 5 years on all guitars and which will be honored for absolutely anything wrong outside of cosmetics/looks.

Really- I'm not forcing you to re-read all my comments. But if you truly had a point I didn't address I'd happily respond to it.

Could you provide daytime pictures of said maple fretboards then?

 

[mbardu]

Go do a google search for "Kiesel Roasted Maple Fretboards" and look at every one that Kiesel photographed themselves. They're all nearly perfectly consistent with what would visibly be considered Roasted Maple. Its OBVIOUS. There's not one that leaves room for questioning. If you can look at all of that preponderance of evidence, and still claim there isn't room to question whether or not it was roasted, you need glasses.

Here, I did it for you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=kiesel+roasted+maple+fretboard&sxsrf=ALeKk02XCnEhcaRqQng_BdVO3sG5Czn2tw:1587663916237&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=U67UYgJOrNMoUM%3A%2CuAAl_cXLHrhHjM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQnbmkLQUlPBWFQazYX2IDv_kCN6Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihyv_9jP_oAhVPMqwKHWxlCf8Q9QEwAnoECAkQFw#imgrc=U67UYgJOrNMoUM:

Oh I see, so when it's against Kiesel, we can pull google images (including images that have quite light fretboards btw), but when it's to show others such as PRS then it's not allowed? What are the rules?

Plus I suggest you think about the consistency of your reply. Your two sentences next to each other "There's not one that leaves room for questioning. If you can look at all of that preponderance of evidence, and still claim there isn't room to question" even directly contradict each other.

I'm the one saying there is room for questioning, and there is no certainty one way or the other. I say it could be either way. You are the one pretending that you absolutely know that it is not roasted (you literally say "There's not one that leaves room for questioning" just based on google images) without having built or seen the guitar in person. That's the difference.

 

[Jonathan20022]

I was gonna reply, but holy shit I'm done. Pure delusion, the PRS you posted is consistent despite being two separate pieces of roasted maple. And the photos you used were hyper exposed or drowned in natural light, your search for a "light" roasted maple board is fraudulent and deceptive.

His point is that Kiesel themselves constantly deliver a spectrum of shades for Roasted Maple, this lies outside of that spectrum since you cannot reliably find ANY example of roasted maple that pale to backup your position.

 

[mbardu]

I was gonna reply, but holy shit I'm done. Pure delusion, the PRS you posted is consistent despite being two separate pieces of roasted maple. And the photos you used were hyper exposed or drowned in natural light, your search for a "light" roasted maple board is fraudulent and deceptive.

Moving the goalposts... "the PRS you posted is consistent despite being two separate pieces of roasted maple" has no bearing on whether roasted maple can be light or not.
It's a separate discussion (is the matching good on the Kiesel? No it's not) on which everyone is in agreement.

His point is that Kiesel themselves constantly deliver a spectrum of shades for Roasted Maple, this lies outside of that spectrum since you cannot reliably find ANY example of roasted maple that pale to backup your position.

Yes this is extremely white compared to others. Obviously it is. That's why there is so much drama- if it was a middling board, it would obviously not raise attention.
But because it's at an extreme end of the spectrum, people on a forum can know with absolute certainty (and better than the client and Kiesel) whether it's actually roasted maple? This makes no sense and goes exactly against your supposed "doubt and questioning is important". That part is clearly forgotten from your perspective when considering arguments not necessarily shitting on Kiesel. "It looks light? Kiesel must be liars, no doubt or questioning about it".

 

[jbcrazy]

I don't think people get this. It doesn't matter if the guitar had a roasted maple board or not. A repeat customer who bought a bunch of your guitars isn't happy with the product. You sack up and treat that customer like they're always right. Apparently this dude has 30 carvin/kiesel guitars? Come on man. It's not that complicated. You don't belittle them. Question them. Or whatever. Just make them happy. He has like a shit load of your guitars... wtf.

 

[G_3_3_k_]

So first its only Jeff can tell the truth, now its there's room for questions. I'm saying that there is one instance. THAT specific video where a roasted board is THAT light. Claimed by the person running the company who made it. He's the one with something to lose. Yet every other picture of any of them that are roasted are MANY shades darker than the one in the video in question. It doesn't match the neck. Roasted (poorly) or not, it absolutely looks bad for him. ESPECIALLY in light of all of the previous work out there that is 'roasted'. If you can't be as consistent with the material as other builders, maybe you shouldn't offer the material. He could have at the very least, had someone call the customer and give him the option then when it was noticed. This makes me want to talk about how he robbed people's finished guitars for parts so that he could get more guitars ready for NAMM. Its poor planning, poor business practice, and just plain awful customer service. Product should be consistent. Even he talks about how the consistency of CNC is better than hand tooled guitars.

What Kiesel needs, is consistency in QC (this was poor QC), consistency in customer care (this was poor customer care. AGAIN), and consistency in businsess ethics (this was handled ethically poorly). These three things would solve their issues.