The Carvin / Kiesel thread

[danbox]

I do really like that black guitar with the pale moon fretboard, third picture on stage 1 https://kieselguitarsrun.com/stage1

Aries is one of the models I’m looking at for a good 7 string multiscale but am not planning on getting anything for like a year... I bet if I end up getting one it’ll be like $500 more than getting one of these runs -_-

 

[mbardu]

Nobody ever accused Kiesel or the fanboys of having good taste. The amount of cringey guitars on reverb is astounding.

Is it though?
Checking the actual recent listings on reverb, it's actually pretty tame.
There's one guitar in KRG which you might not like (I don't love KRG myself), and there's one Vader-8 with a ton of ridiculous colors but those are exceptions that ironically I bet most people here would love . Same on GuitarCenter actually. Not really much in the way of gaudy or insane. Most people can't even afford to tick all the boxes today anyway considering how much the price of options has increased .

IMO this is one other cliché that's hard to shake off because we all remember the watermelon guitar, or the most obnoxious Aries examples, or of course they will highlight the crazier stuff on their social media... I mean, of course its there and some are forever burnt on our collective retina, but at the end of the day in terms of what is actually built in large numbers, it's not that bad. Just like the cliché that they have no resale value, it's just stuck now.

Other builders frequently push out stuff that's at least as gaudy...plus they charge a lot more and they don't have the excuse of "it's not my fault, it's the customer"

 

[Hollowway]

Is it though?
Checking the actual recent listings on reverb, it's actually pretty tame.
There's one guitar in KRG which you might not like (I don't love KRG myself), and there's one Vader-8 with a ton of ridiculous colors but those are exceptions that ironically I bet most people here would love . Same on GuitarCenter actually. Not really much in the way of gaudy or insane. Most people can't even afford to tick all the boxes today anyway considering how much the price of options has increased .

IMO this is one other cliché that's hard to shake off because we all remember the watermelon guitar, or the most obnoxious Aries examples, or of course they will highlight the crazier stuff on their social media... I mean, of course its there and some are forever burnt on our collective retina, but at the end of the day in terms of what is actually built in large numbers, it's not that bad. Just like the cliché that they have no resale value, it's just stuck now.

Other builders frequently push out stuff that's at least as gaudy...plus they charge a lot more and they don't have the excuse of "it's not my fault, it's the customer"

I know you’re a Kiesel fan, so it’s probably going to come off differently. But there have and are a lot of questionable (to me) guitars on Reverb over the past year, say. Maybe not right now, though. There are two on the kiesel in stock page that I think could have been absolutely killer guitars if they hadn’t kept going with options. You’re right - the majority of builds aren’t over the top. But there are definitely a handful of people out there that have questionable taste for artists, lol. And of course there are worse offenders out there in the world of luthierie. No one is saying kiesel’s the worst. (I think we can agree that goes to Lionheart.)

 

[mbardu]

I know you’re a Kiesel fan, so it’s probably going to come off differently. But there have and are a lot of questionable (to me) guitars on Reverb over the past year, say. Maybe not right now, though. There are two on the kiesel in stock page that I think could have been absolutely killer guitars if they hadn’t kept going with options. You’re right - the majority of builds aren’t over the top. But there are definitely a handful of people out there that have questionable taste for artists, lol. And of course there are worse offenders out there in the world of luthierie. No one is saying kiesel’s the worst. (I think we can agree that goes to Lionheart.)

I'm not more of a Kiesel fan (especially lately) than an Anderson fan or a Vandermeij fan or a Korean Schecter fan. And i agree with you wholeheartedly that there are tons (tens or even a hundred i bet we could find) of kiesels that basically hurt to look at . And sometimes a couple do pop up on reverb and in the "guitars too funny not to post" thread. But out of probably 50/100k Carvin or Kiesels out there, they are outliers.
And Kiesel just tends to really be the name where we take the exception for the rule when it's time to criticize.

 

[Hollowway]

And Kiesel just tends to really be the name where we take the exception for the rule when it's time to criticize.

In this thread. I assure you the focus is 100% on extraneous abalone in the BC Rich thread, lol.

 

[RevelGTR]

After months of deliberation I finally put in an order for a Kiesel last week. Some highlights:
- DC600 with the small, Vader style bevels
- 80’s Pearl Pink
- Hipshot trem and black/cream M12SD/Beryllium set
- Black hardware
- Birdseye maple board
- Satin ebony headstock overlay with gold metallic logo

Going for a vibe somewhere between an 80’s soloist and an insta-approved Suhr/AZ/Charvel superstrat.

 

[Yelir]

Is it though?
Checking the actual recent listings on reverb, it's actually pretty tame.
There's one guitar in KRG which you might not like (I don't love KRG myself), and there's one Vader-8 with a ton of ridiculous colors but those are exceptions that ironically I bet most people here would love . Same on GuitarCenter actually. Not really much in the way of gaudy or insane. Most people can't even afford to tick all the boxes today anyway considering how much the price of options has increased .

Woah I really like the V8, too bad it only has the single pickup...

 

[laxu]

If people could visualize every option they’re checking, they’d check a lot less options.

That's why I made a Photoshop mockup of the Kiesel AM7 figuring out the look I wanted and then sent that to Kiesel and they delivered very very well.

Real vs mockup

Whether people agree with my choices is a whole other thing but I like how it looks. I've always been a fan of flashy guitars so I'm happy to shred on my swimming pool of a guitar! If I were to order the same guitar now I would probably pick a different finish because they have more that I like available now than they did at the end of 2015.

I understand why Kiesel has been in no hurry to update their builder software because it gets expensive real quick when you don't have in-house developers. It's also a pretty complicated system with a lot of assets required for different woods and finishes and getting all that produced is a lot of work too.

The real issue for most is that they start thinking their dream guitar before they know what things they like and dislike. So they pick every option available just so they'll have it.

 

[Avedas]

Honestly from a technical perspective a builder is a weekend project. Maybe a bit more if you need to gather photos of all your different options, but it's not too complicated.

I think the business reason of not having a builder is that they would be held responsible for the guitar turning out exactly like the builder shows it. You'll definitely get people complaining about wood variation etc.

And of course the more nefarious reason is because people suck at visualizing guitars and that leads them to choose more options thinking they'll look better, meaning more money for Jeff.

 

[spudmunkey]

Honestly from a technical perspective a builder is a weekend project. Maybe a bit more if you need to gather photos of all your different options, but it's not too complicated.

I think the business reason of not having a builder is that they would be held responsible for the guitar turning out exactly like the builder shows it. You'll definitely get people complaining about wood variation etc.

And of course the more nefarious reason is because people suck at visualizing guitars and that leads them to choose more options thinking they'll look better, meaning more money for Jeff.

A conversation thatxs been had hundreds of times, but...

They are basically running at capacity without it. It would purely be a marketing expense. If it boosted sales, they would increase prices to act as a throttle. If it didn't boost sales, they would also raise prices to pay for it.

For that investment, they likely wouldn't bother with it UNLESS it created some efficiencies back-of-house. Unless it spat out something that integrated with a order entry/billing/production ticket system.

Outside of that, I could see them doing something INCREDIBLY rudimentary (like a paint-by-numbers children's coloring book) for maybe 1 or 2 models.

Where things start to get tricky is with things like the Rear Natural Clear option. This option looks different from model to model, and if there's a top wood or not. To make a virtual builder to accurately represent the different end-results, they would have to add multiple codes for the different versions, or have a specialized builder for each model, which simply isn't a sustainable setup for adding models and options in the future.

Last summer, I came across a newly-uploaded YouTube video that only had about a dozen views, and was only a few hours old. It was posted with a clickbait title, something like "fired by kiesel!" In the approximately 20 minute video, he detailed a timeline where he actually worked with kiesel on a builder in his spare time. He visited the factory, they bought him lunch, they talked about the plan. Initially he didn't think it was going to be as involved as it turned out the desired end result was going to be. He worked on it a bit, took a break due to other things in his life and work, and then wasn't able to complete it for whatever reason, I don't actually remember specifically. But it's not that he was fired, per se, just that he was taking a long time, didn't actually finish much, and they parted ways. I could be wrong, but I think it was that person who made the Vader builder that was shared in their Facebook group, which got taken down, partially because he had a donation link on his page.

I watched the video once, and was planning to rewatch it again the next day to try to record some of the details from it, but it was since deleted. I have to assume someone from kiesel reached out and said, "Hey man...come on...you gotta take that down."

In the video, multiple times, he went out of his way to say how kind and generous Kiesel and Jeff specifically were, with their time, attention, and cooperation… it just ended up being a much larger, and much deeper project than he was initially expecting and wasn't able to finish a whole lot.

So it's not like it's something they haven't actually looked into with some depth that.. no doubt it's something they want, but is really only worth it if they can get something out of it beyond just a colouring book… it would have to prove its worth in improving things on their end, as well.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

A conversation thatxs been had hundreds of times, but...

They are basically running at capacity without it. It would purely be a marketing expense. If it boosted sales, they would increase prices to act as a throttle. If it didn't boost sales, they would also raise prices to pay for it.

For that investment, they likely wouldn't bother with it UNLESS it created some efficiencies back-of-house. Unless it spat out something that integrated with a order entry/billing/production ticket system.

Outside of that, I could see them doing something INCREDIBLY rudimentary (like a paint-by-numbers children's coloring book) for maybe 1 or 2 models.

Where things start to get tricky is with things like the Rear Natural Clear option. This option looks different from model to model, and if there's a top wood or not. To make a virtual builder to accurately represent the different end-results, they would have to add multiple codes for the different versions, or have a specialized builder for each model, which simply isn't a sustainable setup for adding models and options in the future.

Last summer, I came across a newly-uploaded YouTube video that only had about a dozen views, and was only a few hours old. It was posted with a clickbait title, something like "fired by kiesel!" In the approximately 20 minute video, he detailed a timeline where he actually worked with kiesel on a builder in his spare time. He visited the factory, they bought him lunch, they talked about the plan. Initially he didn't think it was going to be as involved as it turned out the desired end result was going to be. He worked on it a bit, took a break due to other things in his life and work, and then wasn't able to complete it for whatever reason, I don't actually remember specifically. But it's not that he was fired, per se, just that he was taking a long time, didn't actually finish much, and they parted ways. I could be wrong, but I think it was that person who made the Vader builder that was shared in their Facebook group, which got taken down, partially because he had a donation link on his page.

I watched the video once, and was planning to rewatch it again the next day to try to record some of the details from it, but it was since deleted. I have to assume someone from kiesel reached out and said, "Hey man...come on...you gotta take that down."

In the video, multiple times, he went out of his way to say how kind and generous Kiesel and Jeff specifically were, with their time, attention, and cooperation… it just ended up being a much larger, and much deeper project than he was initially expecting and wasn't able to finish a whole lot.

So it's not like it's something they haven't actually looked into with some depth that.. no doubt it's something they want, but is really only worth it if they can get something out of it beyond just a colouring book… it would have to prove its worth in improving things on their end, as well.

This is some serious mental gymnastics and utter bullshit tbh. If companies like Balaguer, Halo, Aviator, and even ESP can get visual builders up and running, then so could kiesel. Halo and Balaguer's builders are filled with options too, so acting as though kiesel somehow wouldn't be able to do the same is asinine. I've been saying it basically since Halo came out with their builder (like over 6 years ago) that more companies need one.
As far as mockups not matching reality, all they'd have to do is put the same kind of disclaimer Balaguer uses "this is a visual representation and is not a guarantee of what your build will look like due to variation in wood grain etc".

 

[Avedas]

Yeah again I really don't buy any technical challenge. I think it would just be too expensive to maintain at the quality Kiesel would want and the business doesn't particularly benefit from it anyway.

 

[xzacx]

This is some serious mental gymnastics and utter bullshit tbh. If companies like Balaguer, Halo, Aviator, and even ESP can get visual builders up and running, then so could kiesel.

Companies don't run regular sales/promos/runs because they don't want to sell more guitars. I cringe whenever I see this inference about Kiesel. That's not a knock on them either—I'm not suggesting they aren't selling lots of guitars and doing great, but I don't believe for a single second they wouldn't happily sell as many more as they could. Even if wait times increased 25-50%, they'd still be faster than the vast majority of custom builds. I won't bother speculating why they won't do a visualizer, because speculation is all that it would be, but there's no way I'm buying that as the reason.

 

[RevelGTR]

I almost think a new website should take priority over a builder, although both at once would make the most sense. I do have a weird sort of affection for their horrible website because I can remember being a thrash elitist 13 year old in 2008 and drooling over Ultra V’s and V220’s on the exact same website as they have now

 

[Seabeast2000]

I thought "Kiesel" or Jeff had alluded to a new site coming several months back.....

 

[lurè]

Their builder is also very simple with no pics or preview of specs; just a list of options to select.
I'm not asking a completely overhaul with 3d rendering of guitars, just add the "call my guys" specs as selectable.

 

[mbardu]

Companies don't run regular sales/promos/runs because they don't want to sell more guitars. I cringe whenever I see this inference about Kiesel. That's not a knock on them either—I'm not suggesting they aren't selling lots of guitars and doing great, but I don't believe for a single second they wouldn't happily sell as many more as they could. Even if wait times increased 25-50%, they'd still be faster than the vast majority of custom builds. I won't bother speculating why they won't do a visualizer, because speculation is all that it would be, but there's no way I'm buying that as the reason.

Counterpoint: their promos have been pretty useless over the last 18 months (as is the latest run)- and yet they're still running at capacity.

The "Even if wait times increased 25-50%" also misses the point and is kinda bad maths and simplification...
Having a bigger steady stream of orders would not increase wait times 50% (say from 2 months to 3 months) as a "one-off" compared to today.

Instead, imagine they have a max throughput of let's say 5,000 guitars a year, and suddenly had 7,500 orders a year.
This would not increase wait times by 50%. Instead, after two years for example, they now have 15,000 orders to fulfill. This would take 3 years of builds at their total throughput. So if you order end of year 2, you have to wait at least a year for your order, which is 4/6 times longer than the current 2/3 months. And obviously this compounds with time. After 4 years, you have 30,000 orders, yet only had throughput to produce 20,000 so you're now 10,000 guitars (or 2 years) behind.

And those are not just made up hypothetical numbers either. I don't believe their throughput could be much higher than 5000.
I've seen the shop, and they're pretty full already, with only finite space and machines. All of last year they were also working over time with the staff that they have in order to keep up with demand. To change scale beyond that, they'd need the desire to move location (again), which is a pretty big deal and at least a multi-year project; as well as to train and staff more people (which is hardly free) ... And just hope quality or consistency doesn't suffer. But more importantly, they don't need to. As it stands they're still playing with their pricing power with their small regular increases, and it has not decreased demand yet, while increasing their margins (at least I suspect). So as long as their order book is full, that's 100% the right business move. It might sound counterintuitive, but not all businesses have to or want to produce more either. Not everyone is FMIC. Sometimes having fixed or at least controlled volumes and improving margins is just as good a model.
That's also a much better business model in my book than the way too common small builders taking on exponential numbers of orders, with wait times going to multi-year real quick, and then frustration on all parts, rushed attempt to scale that often fail, and often drop in quality.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I think folks are greatly overestimating how a virtual builder will affect order volume.

 

[Dumple Stilzkin]

Kiesel isn’t exactly hurtin’ for orders.

 

[Hollowway]

It’s not about increasing sales. A virtual builder is done for the benefit of the customer. A good business, that lasts a long time, puts its customers and their experience first. My consistent criticism of Jeff is that he appears to only care about himself and the income from the business. It’s a stark contrast to those before him, who has this vision of a company that would make custom guitars of high quality, and do so at a reasonable price. If he did things with the customer first attitude, he’d create way more fans, and have a much better chance at fending off any future competition or a market downturn. He operates as though he thinks the guitar world is never going to change, and there’s just no way to know that. It’s true that Kiesel doesn’t NEED a virtual builder. But, it’s not clear that they shouldn’t have one.