All 5ths tuned baritone woes, need different gauges or setup?!

[focusbob]

Hello! I'm hoping the pioneers of ERG tuning here can help me choose suitable string gauges for my all 5ths tuned (high to low: e a d g c f) 6 string baritone (28.625" scale) guitar, and/or help me sort out an issue in my setup. In brief, despite "sufficient" (17-18+ lbs) tension, the wound strings are buzzing across the neck (without obvious setup issues) unless I raise the action above fender specs (too high). More detail:

At present I am using d'addario nyxl strings with gauges (high to low): .0085, .013, .022, .034, .053, .080. Though string tension calculators led me to believe these gauges would give me sufficient (17-18+ lbs) tension on the wound strings, they are buzzing everywhere on the neck. I set up my own guitars (typically successfully) and tried adjusting this buzz out, and the only thing that worked was raising the action (above fender recommended specs, and too high for my tastes). I understand that could indicate that the frets are uneven but, arguing against that interpretation, my fret rocker didn't find anything off and the buzzing is fairly evenly spread across the neck (also seemingly ruling out relief as a cause/solution). I thought perhaps the low f string might need more than the usual amount of tension (e.g., 19+ lbs) to be buzz free but that doesn't explain why the low c string is struggling as well...

With all of that (and thank you for reading if you got this far!), do you think I need more string tension/higher gauges on the wound strings or do you think there is some other issue with my setup (and if so, what do you think it might be)? I'm stumped and before I spend a bunch on kalium strings of various gauges, I'd like to hear whether that seems like a futile attempt. Thanks!!

 

[Lorcan Ward]

Your string gauges are fine. Do the gauges feel tight? They should feel similar to a 46-48 gauge E string on a 25.5".

Was the guitar buzzing in its previous tuning? Spreading evenly across the neck tells me its a relief problem and you need to ad more in to give the strings breathing room.

 

[I play music]

Does it only buzz in the room? ignore it yes seriously
Does it buzz through the amp? maybe frets are not level or so
wouldn't go for higher gauges

 

[TimSE]

GOt any pics or a video of it in action? Be good to see what you mean exactly to pinpoint the issue. Could be something other than your strings. Could be a nut issue/bridge saddle issue. Has the guitar had thick gauges like this before? prob not if its a 6 string.

I think your strings are fine. I think it's something else somewhere rattling

 

[Winspear]

They should feel similar to a 46-48 gauge E string on a 25.5".

True, the C is similar tension to a standard scale 47 E, the low E more like a 45.
You know about your tension numbers already, clearly. But I would say yes - a bit heavier is necessary to completely remove buzz even though this tension is acceptable and shouldn't be problematic as such. Definitely normal to want a bit more on 28.6" though!

Simple test is tune up a semitone on those strings. Is it good then? If so increase to 85 and 56.
I do find that the minimum tension on long scales is higher because they have more room to vibrate (which is what makes them sound clearer). In other words even 20 or 22lbs on a bass scale length would feel like spaghetti. I tend to add about 0.5-1lb per inch.
I would use 85 and 56.
I used your exact gauges and tuning on 30"

 

[TimSE]

Simple test is tune up a semitone on those strings. Is it good then? If so increase to 85 and 56.

This is a good shout. Great way to find out if it is just lack of tension (keep an eye on your neck bow though. Could give you a false positive)

 

[ixlramp]

There is no point in increasing tension above what you prefer, so assuming you have the tension you like the only approach and solution is setup.
Buzz equally spread along the neck indicates an optimum relief. So raising action seems the only solution.

No idea why the action would need to be higher in a fifths tuning than a previously used baritone fourths tuning, that does not make sense. I assume you have used a different baritone tuning before on this instrument and managed lower action?

Are you using D'Addario strings for the first time? Maybe they are more flexible (a good thing) than strings you used before?

You should ignore manufacturer "recommended setup measurements" because setup depends so much on the individual instrument, the tuning, gauges, your needs and technique. Therefore, you never need to measure anything, just setup according to how it plays.
Being above "Fender recommended specs" is therefore irrelevant.

 

[xwmucradiox]

Buzz on long-scale low-tuned heavy strings with low action is a fact of life. The excursion of the string will always be wider than the amount of space they have to vibrate, especially if you play with a heavy pick.

Im a bit surprised that you say a fret rocker showed no uneven frets at all. Have the frets on this neck been leveled? If not it would be extremely unusual to have no rocking at all.

 

[focusbob]

Your string gauges are fine. Do the gauges feel tight? They should feel similar to a 46-48 gauge E string on a 25.5".

Was the guitar buzzing in its previous tuning? Spreading evenly across the neck tells me its a relief problem and you need to ad more in to give the strings breathing room.

To be honest, it has been such a long time since the guitar was in a different tuning that I don't remember (I was previously using a 30" scale conversion neck with this body)... relief is definitely a suspect, though, and I will measure it as soon as I get a chance, but it has some now, I would guess .01". I struggle playing with more relief, in general, but it is worth experimenting.

 

[focusbob]

True, the C is similar tension to a standard scale 47 E, the low E more like a 45.
You know about your tension numbers already, clearly. But I would say yes - a bit heavier is necessary to completely remove buzz even though this tension is acceptable and shouldn't be problematic as such. Definitely normal to want a bit more on 28.6" though!

Simple test is tune up a semitone on those strings. Is it good then? If so increase to 85 and 56.
I do find that the minimum tension on long scales is higher because they have more room to vibrate (which is what makes them sound clearer). In other words even 20 or 22lbs on a bass scale length would feel like spaghetti. I tend to add about 0.5-1lb per inch.
I would use 85 and 56.
I used your exact gauges and tuning on 30"

Thanks Tom, this is all very helpful! When you noted that you add .5-1lb of tension per inch of scale length, at what scale length do you start from, 25.5"? If my target tension at 25.5" scale is 17-<19lbs, what would this translate to at 28.625" given your "formula" (18.5-22 lbs)?

I take your point about string excursion, and I will try tuning up a semitone tomorrow (after dropping the action back to normal)!

 

[focusbob]

I'm a bit surprised that you say a fret rocker showed no uneven frets at all. Have the frets on this neck been leveled? If not it would be extremely unusual to have no rocking at all.

Yes, the frets have been leveled (but not by me, which is why I suspected and checked them).

 

[focusbob]

Ok, 2 quick follow-ups:
1) relief is set at approximately .01". Even if more relief would solve the problem, I don't think I would prefer that solution to others (e.g., raising action).
2) I dropped action down to (the still not "low") 6/64" on the lowest strings and the buzz predictably returned (I had it at 8/64" previously, which was too high for my tastes). Then, I tuned up the c string a semitone and the buzzing was greatly reduced. So, I think higher gauge strings are the answer.

As per Tom's comment, it appears that equivalent tension in lbs does not provide equivalent feel across scale lengths. When I dropped the action down to 6/64", I noticed how floppy the low F felt (despite it having the same tension in lbs as the low E string on a 25.5" scale guitar with standard gauge strings). Interesting (to me)!

 

[focusbob]

I tend to add about 0.5-1lb per inch.
I would use 85 and 56.
I used your exact gauges and tuning on 30"

Sorry to reply multiple times, Tom, but would you please clarify what type of strings you were using on your 30" or what strings you would use that include an 85 gauge string? Kalium? Are there other non bass strings in that or similar gauge(s)?

 

[Winspear]

I had both stringjoy and newtone mid 80s at some point, and a kalium 86

Maybe the "up to 1lb" of my suggestion was a bit on the high end if stacking that across multiple inches. Depending what gauges are available and how the tension works out with gauge rounding up and such I might add 1lb from one inch to another, but across a few inches I guess I do more like 2lb total

 

[Bearitone]

Buzz on long-scale low-tuned heavy strings with low action is a fact of life. The excursion of the string will always be wider than the amount of space they have to vibrate, especially if you play with a heavy pick.

Im a bit surprised that you say a fret rocker showed no uneven frets at all. Have the frets on this neck been leveled? If not it would be extremely unusual to have no rocking at all.

Agreed. I even got my most recent baritone Plek’d and I still have fret buzz during heavy riffing. I use a .085 for drop F on a 28.625” scale.

I’ve tried to get rid of the buzz for years.

The best compromise I’ve found is to set the action high enough to where i don’t have noticeably annoying fret buzz during mellow, clean, noodling. For the heavy handed chugging though? I just accept it now.

That said I do think a good fret job/Plek will get you the best you can get.