An idea for headless Hybrid 7-string guitar - advice needed

[Chromatizm]

Hey guys, new member but long time lurker here. Never really though I'd think of fan-fretted seven string, because six is already too much for me, but times change, and curiosity turned into obsession


So I'm finally thinking of building a custom instrument, which would be a hybrid of my favorite John McLaughlin's guitar build by Mike Sabre with Strandberg-style ergonomics for body and Larada 7 string neck. No headstock, as you would imagine.

So, basically, the top contour is https://www.johnmclaughlin.com/guitars/5.jpg, the bottom and neck head is https://strandbergguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/true-temp-family2-1536x970.png, the neck and hardware https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0296/7607/7115/products/7_Black-1_1280x.jpg?v=1579894856. In my mind it should be a killer guitar. Not a full copy of any of those in everything but the neck.

The issue I'm having is the dimensions/measurements of Larada neck on the nut and in the bridge. To be more precise, the distances between the strings on the nut and in the bridge are unknown to me. I feel like this is the key to Larada's playability and comfort, but I cannot measure it. Is there anybody who could help me with this? That would be extremely generous as I have no chance to measure this myself.


On the topic of multiscale guitars, do you think it is possible to develop the fan-fretted neck and attach it to the regular Strat body? My main is G&L S-500, and I would like to turn it in multiscale by replacing the neck. Is this something you have tried or have experience with?

So much great topics on the forum, so please let me know if I missed a similar discussion. Thank you!

 

[spudmunkey]

On the topic of multiscale guitars, do you think it is possible to develop the fan-fretted neck and attach it to the regular Strat body? My main is G&L S-500, and I would like to turn it in multiscale by replacing the neck. Is this something you have tried or have experience with?

Because you won't be able to really get any angle out of the bridge, the whole scale range difference will need to come from an angled nut. What I mean is, when you see a guitar that's, say, 26-28", that's a 2" scale difference. For the sake of easy math, let's say the neutral/parallel fret is the 12th fret, right in the middle. That means that the 12th fret is flat, and the bridge is angled 1" in one direction, and the nut is angled 1" in the other, for the the total to be that 2" for 26-28".

However, if you can't angle the bridge, you will either need to angle your nut twice as much to keep that 2" fan, or if you stick with the same 1/2 nut angle , you're only getting a 1" fan.

And the question is: why are you getting multiscale, then? Are you getting it because you aren't getting enough string tension on your low strings with the standard scale, which is the main reason it exists? Then to keep that same desired longer-scale tension, you'll need to have a much more steeply-angled nut to go along with the straight bridge, and the more steeply it's angled, the way less comfortable and playable it'll be down at the lower frets. But if you need the nut to have a shallower angle so as not to be uncomfortable...then you're not really getting as much of a benefit since the scale won't be lengthened as much since you can't angle the bridge.

Just trying to make sure you're not thinking "multiscale is multiscale", and getting it for the wrong reasons.

 

[Chromatizm]

And the question is: why are you getting multiscale, then? Are you getting it because you aren't getting enough string tension on your low strings with the standard scale, which is the main reason it exists? Then to keep that same desired longer-scale tension, you'll need to have a much more steeply-angled nut to go along with the straight bridge, and the more steeply it's angled, the way less comfortable and playable it'll be down at the lower frets.

Thank you very much for this! Yes, I want to fine-tune the playability and "feel". And I was also thinking how actually "fanned" the frets will be in such case, and seems like I won't get much use for frets 1 to 5 - sometimes I struggle with them even on normal frets.

So ok, got it - I should leave my guitar as it is and continue planning my 7 string with optimized neck! Now if only I could get proper measurements...

 

[spudmunkey]

Thank you very much for this! Yes, I want to fine-tune the playability and "feel". And I was also thinking how actually "fanned" the frets will be in such case, and seems like I won't get much use for frets 1 to 5 - sometimes I struggle with them even on normal frets.

So ok, got it - I should leave my guitar as it is and continue planning my 7 string with optimized neck! Now if only I could get proper measurements...

I've got a digital caliper. Is someone ships me one, I'll take measurements and would ship it back. Ha!

 

[Chromatizm]

I've got a digital caliper. Is someone ships me one, I'll take measurements and would ship it back. Ha!

Haha Well, I do not need a lot, just neck width on the nut and the space between the strings on the nut/0 fret. The last one would be space between the strings on the bridge

 

[KnightBrolaire]

Because you won't be able to really get any angle out of the bridge, the whole scale range difference will need to come from an angled nut. What I mean is, when you see a guitar that's, say, 26-28", that's a 2" scale difference. For the sake of easy math, let's say the neutral/parallel fret is the 12th fret, right in the middle. That means that the 12th fret is flat, and the bridge is angled 1" in one direction, and the nut is angled 1" in the other, for the the total to be that 2" for 26-28".

However, if you can't angle the bridge, you will either need to angle your nut twice as much to keep that 2" fan, or if you stick with the same 1/2 nut angle , you're only getting a 1" fan.

And the question is: why are you getting multiscale, then? Are you getting it because you aren't getting enough string tension on your low strings with the standard scale, which is the main reason it exists? Then to keep that same desired longer-scale tension, you'll need to have a much more steeply-angled nut to go along with the straight bridge, and the more steeply it's angled, the way less comfortable and playable it'll be down at the lower frets. But if you need the nut to have a shallower angle so as not to be uncomfortable...then you're not really getting as much of a benefit since the scale won't be lengthened as much since you can't angle the bridge.

Just trying to make sure you're not thinking "multiscale is multiscale", and getting it for the wrong reasons.

He could just use the bridge as the parallel fret and then make a half-fan neck. The fan would be more severe closer to the nut (depending on how wide the fan is) but that's pretty much the only way to retrofit a standard guitar with a fanned neck.

Multiscale is much less necessary for under 8 strings ime unless the user has very specific needs for string tension or scale lengths. The ergonomic benefit of multiscale alone isn't substantial ime.

 

[Omzig]

He could just use the bridge as the parallel fret and then make a half-fan neck. The fan would be more severe closer to the nut (depending on how wide the fan is) but that's pretty much the only way to retrofit a standard guitar with a fanned neck.

I remember doing some research on this kind of setup for a 24.75-25.5 6 string floyd equipped super strat i wanted to build....Ormsby did one as i came across it while digging out the interwebs to see who had been silly enough to do it...after digging through my bookmarks and image folder i found these.

And a few video's (took a while to find because my BM's were dead & YT sucks ass)

 

[spudmunkey]

He could just use the bridge as the parallel fret and then make a half-fan neck. The fan would be more severe closer to the nut (depending on how wide the fan is) but that's pretty much the only way to retrofit a standard guitar with a fanned neck.

Yeah, I mentioned that scenario in my post, too...but then the question is...is multiscale worth it, then...half the fan for the same comfort, or twice the discomfort to get the same scale fan as a "proper" multiscale guitar.

A fully multiscale guitar with a 25.5-27" range (and 12th fret neutral position for the sake of easy math) will have the nut at the same angle as a 26-26.75" scale guitar where you use the bridge as the neutral "fret". If you want the same 1.5" fan with a straight bridge, that nut would be angled exactly the same as it would on a fully multiscale guitar with a 3" fan, so like 25"-28"...super awkward, as now your frets are starting to cross past each other near the nut. Your 2nd fret will be further down the neck on your low strings compared to the 1st fret on the higher strings. I've never played a guitar like this, but I can't imagine it's comfortable or easy to play...but I'm just as likely wrong on that, since I dont have experience.

 

[Chromatizm]

I remember doing some research on this kind of setup for a 24.75-25.5 6 string floyd equipped super strat i wanted to build....Ormsby did one as i came across it while digging out the interwebs to see who had been silly enough to do it...after digging through my bookmarks and image folder i found these.

Killer playing and beautiful guitar, man! Awesome.

From the videos it seems that you don't have any issues playing on the first frets. It is so?

 

[cip 123]

The idea of having a fan fret with the parallel fret at the bridge is sometimes called "Half-fan" Ormsby have used it as referenced as well as Kemp guitars in the UK see-

Can I ask who is doing the building?

A half fan is a tricky one too make as yes the bridge is theoretically your parallel/straight fret, you also have to include intonation etc so your "straight fret" in this case can move which is an odd one to figure out.

The last factor is your actual scale lengths, imo Ormsby go way too far with their fans all the time even on the half-fan idea, but for smaller subtler fans it can work however it doesn't exactly decrease the complexity.

For the price you'd pay to get someone to convert your guitar in to a multiscale you'd be better off just saving for a Larada over time. Rather than blowing what would probably be $500 for a new neck on a G&L.

I've built my own Larada and based the neck off my Schecter custom shop 7 string, as I said in the actual Abasi thread just because you get the neck specs doesn't mean it will feel like a Larada, if you've never played one you won't know how well one plays, so I'd highly suggest basing your neck on something you have tried and actually enjoy.

Sounds like it will be a cool body design though!

 

[Chromatizm]

Can I ask who is doing the building?

There is a couple of builders in Kiev and another two in Minsk (where I live now) who are willing to undertake the project. However, I did not decide just yet whom to go with.

For the price you'd pay to get someone to convert your guitar in to a multiscale you'd be better off just saving for a Larada over time. Rather than blowing what would probably be $500 for a new neck on a G&L.

I see.. Thank you for the mentioning this. Yes, the price of the "neck only" solution is actually pretty ridiculous. And the benefits might actually turn out to be "cons", because my left hand is hurt pretty bad by practicing huge stretches in chords and lines, so extra length on 5 and 6 string... not sure I need it.

I've built my own Larada and based the neck off my Schecter custom shop 7 string, as I said in the actual Abasi thread just because you get the neck specs doesn't mean it will feel like a Larada, if you've never played one you won't know how well one plays, so I'd highly suggest basing your neck on something you have tried and actually enjoy.

Well, I enjoy Strandberg necks, so I tend to believe that Larada's neck should be pretty close to it in comfort - of course, minus the back of the neck, which is a huge deal. However, as I tend to play tons of legato stuff so I try to get as close to Larada's neck+bridge combination as I could in terms of measurements. Even if it will feel kinda weird at first, I'm positive I will get used to it pretty quickly.

 

[cip 123]

There is a couple of builders in Kiev and another two in Minsk (where I live now) who are willing to undertake the project. However, I did not decide just yet whom to go with.



I see.. Thank you for the mentioning this. Yes, the price of the "neck only" solution is actually pretty ridiculous. And the benefits might actually turn out to be "cons", because my left hand is hurt pretty bad by practicing huge stretches in chords and lines, so extra length on 5 and 6 string... not sure I need it.



Well, I enjoy Strandberg necks, so I tend to believe that Larada's neck should be pretty close to it in comfort - of course, minus the back of the neck, which is a huge deal. However, as I tend to play tons of legato stuff so I try to get as close to Larada's neck+bridge combination as I could in terms of measurements. Even if it will feel kinda weird at first, I'm positive I will get used to it pretty quickly.

FYI if you’re hand is hurting you need to stretch more I did a few years of very intensive guitar technique and the way to solve hand strain was always always stretching and warming up before playing, I used to warm up an hour before intense work.


As far as Larada design goes Tosin just made the string spacing narrower so that it felt more like a traditional guitar and less like a huge neck that some companies design. This might seem like a Huge deal but it’s actually not. Every company has different specs for their necks and string spacing, Abasi just happen to be narrower there are other companies who will have narrower string spacing.


I’d highly recommend going out and trying as many guitars as you can particularly 7 strings so that you know what you want in terms of feel, as I said even if you give the specs of a Larada to a builder it does not mean it will play like one. If you want a Larada it might be worth buying one before you dive head first in to what will be an expensive custom instrument.


If you get your custom instrument and decide it’s not everything you want you’re stuck with a very unique guitar that will be hard to sell.


If you buy a Larada first you can try it out see what you like what you don’t like and then you’ll still have an instrument that will sell easily due to the demand.

 

[Chromatizm]

Thanks so much for writing this!
Regarding the hand: the hour a day is all I can play these days because of the pain. When I was young and practiced for 8 hours a day, I had an extensive and long warm-up. Now I stretch and massage the hand, but the train is long gone, can't fix it completely.

Unfortunately, to have Abasi delivered in Minsk I'll have to pay very significant extra in taxes. I mean... Hell, I can live month at least with that money. And no store in Belarus will get it there just to let me try and decide if I want to buy it. I doubt Tosin will send it to me so I can become the Abasi evangelist here )

That's why I have to go all in and try to emulate Larada's neck and bridge profile by measurements from the internet