Any modelers / captures / software that model the knobs of an amp?

[Shask]

Yeah, the bass selection is unfortunate... But there are a lot of guitar amps in there that sound great with bass and, when I used to do live sound for a band that used Axe FXs, they just ended up not using an amp at all. That's typically how I record bass - just smack a ton of compression on there, a little dirt and some EQ and you're in business.

ToneX is definitely not modeling and is captures. EQ adjustments on it are definitely more natural than I remember them being on the Kemper when I owned one. I'm sure Kemper has gotten much better since release though in that aspect. The EQ will definitely not react the same as the real amp though, so I'd expect to use multiple captures of the same amp if you want different tones. It's not uncommon to buy a ToneX pack and they have like 10+ captures of one type of tone, because the EQ just doesn't have a wide enough range to change the tone correctly, this is really the downfall of captures to begin with, though.

I think ToneX has a more realistic feel and probably CAN sound better. It's undoubtedly more accurate, but the Helix software and hardware are infinitely better. The effects on the ToneX pedal are also very basic compared to Helix.

I think it really depends on what you want from the two. ToneX, for me, excels with captures of my own amps, dialed in how I would set them, through IRs that accentuate the qualities I was looking for when I captured the amp. It's great for recording. Helix is way better for building sounds from scratch and the overall experience doing so is way better. I personally hate going through profile after profile to find one I like. On my Stomp, I just pick an amp I know sounds close to what I want, adjust the EQ and I'm done.

Where the two shine together is the fact that Helix is pretty limited in amp models and if you're using an HX Stomp, you only have a certain amount of DSP/blocks you're working with. If you're looking for something outside those amps or you're constantly running into times where you don't have enough DSP because you're using heavy Reverbs/Delays/Pitch Shifting, offloading that to the ToneX is super helpful.

Have you tried to do a ToneX capture without a cab/IR?

I wonder how well this would work to capture a sound you could play through a poweramp/cab.

It could be cool to do something like an OD, through a Recto, through an EQ, all captured into one little sound you could then play through the ToneX.

 

[MatrixClaw]

Have you tried to do a ToneX capture without a cab/IR?

I wonder how well this would work to capture a sound you could play through a poweramp/cab.

It could be cool to do something like an OD, through a Recto, through an EQ, all captured into one little sound you could then play through the ToneX.

Definitely, an amp only sound captured through a reactive load is the only way to go imo. Still, you have to select an IR or cab to monitor through when you profile it otherwise you're flying blind. This is the problem with most captures on the marketplace. They don't usually tell you what cab/IR they referenced with, so if you're using something different, they can sound wildly different.

 

[budda]

They don't usually tell you what cab/IR they referenced with, so if you're using something different, they can sound wildly different.

Like real amps and models

 

[Screamingdaisy]

I may just have to grab a fractal after all. I just wish they had some more bass models.

I was super close to buying the Tonex big pedal, but it looks like they have several patches of the same amp, so I figured they were captures, not models. Anyone have a Tonex? Can I bring up one of those patches and adjust the pedal controls without it getting wonky? What I’m tying to avoid is spending an inordinate amount of time trawling through their site and others looking for captures of an amp at the settings I want. Specifically for bass, as I have a decent number of actual guitar amps.

What are you trying to accomplish on bass that you need a modeller for?

 

[budda]

What are you trying to accomplish on bass that you need a modeller for?

Not sounding like a portaflex DI, svt DI, sansamp DI or now darkglass DI?

 

[Shask]

Definitely, an amp only sound captured through a reactive load is the only way to go imo. Still, you have to select an IR or cab to monitor through when you profile it otherwise you're flying blind. This is the problem with most captures on the marketplace. They don't usually tell you what cab/IR they referenced with, so if you're using something different, they can sound wildly different.

I was just thinking if I had a rig setup of OD pedals, into an amp like a Recto, into a reactive load, into an EQ, that is ran back into a SS poweramp into a guitar cab, if it would capture the tone and feel if you split off before the poweramp to capture.

Could be an interesting experiment to see how that compares to using a Fractal into a SS poweramp and cab.

 

[MatrixClaw]

Like real amps and models

Like real amps that have a very limited EQ range, though.

I was just thinking if I had a rig setup of OD pedals, into an amp like a Recto, into a reactive load, into an EQ, that is ran back into a SS poweramp into a guitar cab, if it would capture the tone and feel if you split off before the poweramp to capture.

Could be an interesting experiment to see how that compares to using a Fractal into a SS poweramp and cab.

Yeah, this works really well. I ran my ToneX Pedal into an EHX .44 Magnum and into a cab, as well as into my PowerStation and into a cab. Works very well that way.

 

[budda]

Like real amps that have a very limited EQ range, though.

so a lot of them Find your nearest jcm800 and sweep the dials lol. Most amps also dont have active or interactive eq’s either. Graphic eq’s arent too common an addition either.

And as mentioned here before, IRs are an “aha” moment for some players because they tried maybe 2-3 cabs before trying a modeller. Put one amp on 4 cabs, get 4 different sounds. Put 4 amps on 1 cab and the sounds are gonna stay much closer.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I may just have to grab a fractal after all. I just wish they had some more bass models.

Most of the bass tones you hear recorded are just a stomp box or two either in front of a staple SVT or just straight to the board. There's enough options and horsepower in any Fractal device to give you just about any bass tone you could think of.

Don't worry, there's a Darkglass model.

 

[Screamingdaisy]

Most of the bass tones you hear recorded are just a stomp box or two either in front of a staple SVT or just straight to the board.

+1.

There's enough options and horsepower in any Fractal device to give you just about any bass tone you could think of.

Don't worry, there's a Darkglass model.

$1000-$2200 for something that'll do a digital model of a $350 analogue pedal.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

$1000-$2200 for something that'll do a digital model of a $350 analogue pedal.

I doubt anyone is using any of these solely for a pedal model.

It's just nice that it's included and adds more utility to the unit.

Now the big glaring omission is a Sansamp model. How we're in the double digits on software revisions and there still isn't one is nuts.

 

[MatrixClaw]

so a lot of them Find your nearest jcm800 and sweep the dials lol. Most amps also dont have active or interactive eq’s either. Graphic eq’s arent too common an addition either.

And as mentioned here before, IRs are an “aha” moment for some players because they tried maybe 2-3 cabs before trying a modeller. Put one amp on 4 cabs, get 4 different sounds. Put 4 amps on 1 cab and the sounds are gonna stay much closer.

Yeah, my point is that if you adjust the EQ of a capture, it might start to change the sound in ways you wouldn't expect from the actual amp because it only maybe has a vague concept of how the EQ actually works. Not a big deal for people who aren't trying to get as close to the real thing as possible, but for someone who's wanting to replace real amps with modelers, this might be a dealbreaker. It only captures the sound of the amp at a single point in time. The EQ adjustments to the capture are more like adjusting an EQ pedal over top of it. It might add/subtract highs, mids and lows, but it's not necessarily going to work the same as the amp would so you're generally better off just picking a different capture unless you're just doing very minor EQ changes.

IRs are great and that's how I typically use modeling/captures anymore - for recording. My point was in relation to the above. Unless they've literally captured just a bunch of random combinations of the amp EQ and Gain settings, they've dialed their amp specifically to an IR or cab. It might work okay with a different cab, it might not. Kinda the luck of the draw. This is why some people swear by certain captures and then they don't work at all for other people. This same problem doesn't exist in the better modelers because they're modeling the circuit of the amp.

 

[Hollowway]

What are you trying to accomplish on bass that you need a modeller for?

Nothing in particular, but I’d like to have a few different amp models to play around with, just for fun, and not have to buy the actual amps. I’ve been playing bass for a long time, but guitar is my primary instrument. Just the past couple of years have I really started to think about bass tone, and I’ve been reading about the different bass amps, and the tone they’re known for. I really don’t want to go down the amp rabbit hole the way I did with guitar, so I was thinking of experimenting with a modeler or captures, but I didn’t want just one particular setting of a capture.

Like Max said, though, there isn’t a huge amount of variation on bass amp sounds, because DI is a huge thing in bass recording. So I might really just think about trying pedals. Or just go back to playing more guitar.

FWIW I use a peavey mini max as my amp, currently, and really like it.

AND I still might want to get the Axe FX just for all the additional guitar stuff on it. I’ve been leaning heavily toward captures, but I think I might go with the Axe since it would allow me to sweep through a wider range of sounds from a given model.

 

[budda]

@Hollowway used axe3 used tonex have both

 

[Screamingdaisy]

Like Max said, though, there isn’t a huge amount of variation on bass amp sounds, because DI is a huge thing in bass recording.

This is the direction I was going to go when I originally asked. If this is for recording, then DI into DAW with an Ampeg plugin is a perfectly valid way to go.

If layering distortion is your thing there's more of an argument for reamping through a guitar amp for the mids/highs than there is for reamping through a bass amp.

AND I still might want to get the Axe FX just for all the additional guitar stuff on it. I’ve been leaning heavily toward captures, but I think I might go with the Axe since it would allow me to sweep through a wider range of sounds from a given model.

I think this is a really good reason.

Awhile ago a guitarist turned bassist asked on one of the bass forums why digital modellers weren't big in the bass world, and I said it was because an industry standard analogue modeller (BDDI) cost $250, and most of the popular alternatives weren't much more.

I have considered an AxeFX to replicate Justin Chancellor's rig, however it's worth pointing out that JC himself uses a BDDI when he can't use his full setup.

 

[budda]

Imo theres enough effect tones for an axe3/fm3 to be worth it for that alone. Then its also your interface and DI and cabsim means even if you never touch the amp block its still incredible value

 

[RevDrucifer]

Considering the Mark models in the Fractal are as useless as their real life counterparts unless you actually turn the knobs/dial in the 5-band the exact same way on both, I think that’s a pretty upstanding assessment on that particular aspect of Fractals.

When I got more into playing bass a few years back I had a brief period where I said “I want more bass amps”, but in actual practical usage, I end up using a DI for 90% of a bass tone and pretty much just use the AxeFX for dirt on a bass.

If you snag one of Austin Buddy’s packs, pretty sure he has one just for bass, he’s got all the bass amps paired with cabs and there’s over 100 presets. If one could not find/dial in what they want out of those, you’re carving out your own path anyway.

 

[ErockRPh]

Nothing in particular, but I’d like to have a few different amp models to play around with, just for fun, and not have to buy the actual amps. I’ve been playing bass for a long time, but guitar is my primary instrument. Just the past couple of years have I really started to think about bass tone, and I’ve been reading about the different bass amps, and the tone they’re known for. I really don’t want to go down the amp rabbit hole the way I did with guitar, so I was thinking of experimenting with a modeler or captures, but I didn’t want just one particular setting of a capture.

Like Max said, though, there isn’t a huge amount of variation on bass amp sounds, because DI is a huge thing in bass recording. So I might really just think about trying pedals. Or just go back to playing more guitar.

FWIW I use a peavey mini max as my amp, currently, and really like it.

AND I still might want to get the Axe FX just for all the additional guitar stuff on it. I’ve been leaning heavily toward captures, but I think I might go with the Axe since it would allow me to sweep through a wider range of sounds from a given model.

It's funny, the first post I made in one of the Helix for bassists group was a wish list of some presets so I could get some better practice with dialing in a bass tone. I'm a guitarist who plays a lot of bass, but I've never really dove into the nuances of dialing in specific bass tones. Having some basic Fieldy/Flea/Lemmy/Jaco/Steve Harris/etc. presets the way they do with guitar presets would be a great start for me. I got the fingers/pick parts under control, but bass compression and EQ are not my wheelhouse yet.

There responses were literally just:

"Tone comes from playing technique and not amp settings" and "I just use the Darkglass DI model for everything"

Weird group of people those bassists are...

 

[JimboLodisC]

captures are just a snapshot of your amp with the dials in place, the only tech right now that tries to emulate being able to turn the dials on a capture is Kemper's "Liquid Profiling"

anything else will just be applying an EQ before/after the capture, or blending multiple captures together to make it seem like you can turn dials to affect the tone