Are knots and rings detrimental to the longevity of a neck?

[neurosis]

I thought necks are usually quarter sawn to make them more stable and resistant. I thought that cutting with the rings makes wood less sturdy. Today I saw this neck on a Strat and was surprised. You guys are more experienced with wood working than me and usually have good insights to share.

Can you explain why this neck looks this way (other than maybe factory wanted to use all the wood they had to meet demand)? Is this a common thing with Fender that I just never noticed in all these years? And does a neck like this present any issues at all? Is it less reliable over the years than a neck that was cut going with the grain?

Thanks

 

[Moongrum]

It's flat sawn.

Most production guitars use flatsawn wood because it yields more wood from a given log than if you were to cut only for quartersawn.


Personally I like the look of flatsawn more because you can see the rings/grain instead of just vertical "stripes." My Fender mod shop was like that, but it wasn't stained/roasted your like your pic so not as noticeable.
Whether it matters which your guitar neck is made of, I'll leave that for you to research. Everyone seems to have an opinion about it based on hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I thought necks are usually quarter sawn

Maybe 40 years ago, but now, as @Moongrum said, the overwhelming majority are flatsawn as it's much more thrifty.

As for longevity, most necks tend to settle within the first 6 to 18 months. If a neck makes it that far without a significant issue it'll probably last forever so long as proper maintenance and care is taken. I've never found there to be a "perfect recipe" as far as materials and construction.

Necks are usually more about who made them than what they're made out of.

 

[nightsprinter]

educational reading

 

[cardinal]

I've read the best practice is to cut the neck blank down gradually over time. That way, the piece you end up with wants to be flat and straight. If you just grab a board, even with beautiful clear and straight grain, and ripped it down to the end shape, it's hard to know how it'll react once all the stress is relieved etc.

 

[neurosis]

It's flat sawn.
View attachment 143585
Most production guitars use flatsawn wood because it yields more wood from a given log than if you were to cut only for quartersawn.
View attachment 143586

Personally I like the look of flatsawn more because you can see the rings/grain instead of just vertical "stripes." My Fender mod shop was like that, but it wasn't stained/roasted your like your pic so not as noticeable.
Whether it matters which your guitar neck is made of, I'll leave that for you to research. Everyone seems to have an opinion about it based on hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

This is super helpful stuff. the graphics I saw had the lines filled out so it was hard for me to understand how the wood was actually being used. Thank you. I think the flat sawn looks cool I am just worried if I will have issues with it. It's a vintage Strat so it might make sense for the instrument to be like that.

 

[Asdrael]

If you remove wood, the remaining wood will want to move a bit to relieve tension that might have been compensated by the wood you just removed. That's why even with a good dry piece you would ideally want to cut your blank roughly and let it "rest" rest for a bit before you give it ita final shape.

And yes nowadays a lot of mass produced guitars are flat sawn necks, often with less that stellar grain (you dont want to strip down most painted neck...). Also a lot of "quarter sawn" is actually a rift sawn piece that was a cut more closely to the centre... Some places call it "half quarter sawn" when you buy wood.

Since I use carbon fiber rods I am not afraid of the stability but I do prefer the look of a quarter sawn piece

 

[SalsaWood]

Only concern I would have is delamination of those floating/island ring layers, and not too much concern especially with a finished/sealed neck.

 

[neurosis]

@Asdrael and @SalsaWood so it seems like it's another marketing highlight used to persuade you into buying one instrument over another and increase prices since it's more wasteful? It's very helpful to hear that there's little to no additional guarantees of stability or any benefit beyond aesthetics. It opens the range of guitars I'd consider.

@SalsaWood so you are saying the rings would be a concern if the neck was unfinished, but over time and with use it likely will be as the finished on these are thin. At that point do you think there is a risk of separation? It doesn't look like it now.

 

[Asdrael]

I think original fender starts neck were traditionally made from flat sawn timber. Then quarter sawn became fancy. Then good quarter sawn became scarce, so you got scarf joint to be able to use thinner planks. Now you have laminated necks sometimes even with a scarf joint and people claim it's more stable blabla. But hey with a laminate you can get away with poorer wood quality and flat sawn again. The only limiting factor was the quality of the joinery but with the amount of automated tools nowadays it's not a problem anymore.

Just buy the guitar you like. So a used prestige.

 

[SalsaWood]

At that point do you think there is a risk of separation?

Depends on the wood. Honestly I'd have thrown that cut out or recut it to make anything, but like I said it's not a big deal. I'm a genuine asshole about wood. Flexing or shock can most easily cause ring layers to sometimes sprout up or raise around the edges of the island and then delaminate, surface wear accelerates this with the inevitability of catching that edge and further lifting the layer- but we're talking things like axe handles, table legs that will be drug around, shovel handles, so on and so forth. When it comes to knots they are a pretty big hell naw from me due to the pith material which they tend to have, but if that's not present (I don't really see any in your pic) they are completely fine other than throwing another variable into the stresses involved between wet and dry cycles. Not a huge deal in this case either way.

Basically if the ring layers underneath and on top of each other are kept relatively uniform in regard to dimensional forces they undergo it's a moot point. Fold a phone book and all the pages differentially slide against each other and splay out more the closer to the the more acute interior angle they are, the outer pages now have a greater distance to cover if they needed to align as if the book were straight because they are closer to the exterior angle which is less acute, so the book edge no longer has strictly 90 degree relationships to the cover or back anymore since the pages are curving to different degrees relative to their place in the book. That's the biggest things to avoid practically speaking, shear forces within the wood material layers as a result of flexing the structure a lot. 99% chance you could play that guitar your decades and decades without encountering issues, though. While it might be something I consider bad practice in choosing a cut, I can't think of a more harmless way to gamble on it and as scenarios go that neck would not worry me at all. It looks pretty cool and the drawbacks are unlikely to ever be actually realized. I would be happy with it personally.

 

[neurosis]

Thank you for all that additional thinking. Good stuff. While it seems to have less or improbable negative consequence on this use case it's very interesting stuff. I have a feeling @Asdrael might be onto something with his rationale on why necks are made one way or another. Like I was speculating it may have to do with more efficient use of the material and the costs or gains associated with it. That post above from @nightsprinter is also pretty enlightening. quarter sawn may arguably be more stable, until it's not

 

[soldierkahn]

I think original fender starts neck were traditionally made from flat sawn timber. Then quarter sawn became fancy. Then good quarter sawn became scarce, so you got scarf joint to be able to use thinner planks. Now you have laminated necks sometimes even with a scarf joint and people claim it's more stable blabla. But hey with a laminate you can get away with poorer wood quality and flat sawn again. The only limiting factor was the quality of the joinery but with the amount of automated tools nowadays it's not a problem anymore.

Just buy the guitar you like. So a used prestige.

reminds me im home here at SSO

 

[Neon_Knight_]

I think Ibanez used flat-sawn until some time in the '90s, before switching to quarter-sawn, and then soon after started making multi-piece quarter-sawn necks for anything above the Standard line.

I find it hard to believe a company like Ibanez would have chosen a more expensive manufacturing option if there wasn't a benefit to them. My guess is that too many of their thin Wizard necks were being returned by dealers / having issues before they'd even left the factory, but I have nothing to support that idea beyond the fact that Ibanez will generally be making decisions based on its bottom line - money.

 

[NickK-UK]

I've read the best practice is to cut the neck blank down gradually over time. That way, the piece you end up with wants to be flat and straight. If you just grab a board, even with beautiful clear and straight grain, and ripped it down to the end shape, it's hard to know how it'll react once all the stress is relieved etc.

Yes. As you cut, the stresses in the wood are released. Those can be bends, twists and even splits. I did this for my guitar - the 2.4 meter piece of maple was put in the house (to normalise) for a number of months. Then I took the straightest piece and then worked from there. Turns out I had a chunk in the middle that I could use with some twist and bending at each end of the long plank.
Same with the finger board and other pieces of the guitar.

You can cut and flip so the bends cancel out but in the end, unless the bend is perfectly identical there's still a risk. Laminated necks can address that but then you have more wood, more grains and strains in different directions.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I think Ibanez used flat-sawn until some time in the '90s, before switching to quarter-sawn, and then soon after started making multi-piece quarter-sawn necks for anything above the Standard line.

I find it hard to believe a company like Ibanez would have chosen a more expensive manufacturing option if there wasn't a benefit to them. My guess is that too many of their thin Wizard necks were being returned by dealers / having issues before they'd even left the factory, but I have nothing to support that idea beyond the fact that Ibanez will generally be making decisions based on its bottom line - money.

Ibanez doesn't own it's manufacturing, so a lot of decisions are made on behalf of or with Fujigen, what's best for them and their process, in mind.

Marketing and industry dogma play a significant role as well. If buyers think one method is better than another, regardless if it actually is or not, it will shape what's being offered.

 

[cardinal]

I think Ibanez used flat-sawn until some time in the '90s, before switching to quarter-sawn, and then soon after started making multi-piece quarter-sawn necks for anything above the Standard line.

I find it hard to believe a company like Ibanez would have chosen a more expensive manufacturing option if there wasn't a benefit to them. My guess is that too many of their thin Wizard necks were being returned by dealers / having issues before they'd even left the factory, but I have nothing to support that idea beyond the fact that Ibanez will generally be making decisions based on its bottom line - money.

When Fujigen/Ibanez was doing the one-piece, scarf joint necks, most of the normal necks were flat sawn but I think Jems and Universes were nearly always quartersawn.

 

[_MonSTeR_]

When Fujigen/Ibanez was doing the one-piece, scarf joint necks, most of the normal necks were flat sawn but I think Jems and Universes were nearly always quartersawn.

I've had my share of Ibanez, in fact I've had several people's share of Ibanez... So far (and touch wood) I've never had any issue with the quartersawn necks

 

[cardinal]

I've had my share of Ibanez, in fact I've had several people's share of Ibanez... So far (and touch wood) I've never had any issue with the quartersawn necks

Same. I had a '90 UV with a quartersawn neck that was about the thickness of two sheets of paper but was beautifully straight and stable.