AWESOME NEW 7 STRING RANS!!! (Pic Heavy)

[kmanick]

GMW used to make incredible Charvel San Dimas copies (I know, I have one , and have owned several). He sold tons of those (and all were excellent guitars)
Fender put out the cease order and he cant do them anymore(but now you can get one from Charvel)
I don't really have a problem with what Ran is doing.
They are not trying to pass them off as Originals.
Now if I had them make me a 7 string Jackson soloist copy and the Headstock had a Jackson logo on it , I would have a problem with it.
If it has a ran logo I don't. Most likely you're going to get RAN to do something for you that the Original company wouldn't do anyway (case in point ,that 7 string neckthru JS that started this whole thread.). Do you think you can get one of those from Ibanez?(maybe if your last name is Satriani).
I'm even tempted to get a quote on one of those Yamaha lokking 7's, I really like that.

 

[canuck brian]

I'm almost 100% certain that people saying that there really shouldn't be a problem here don't own their own business. I'm trying to build my own business and it really irks me that Ran is doing what they do - copying other people's ideas. You can say they're only doing what the customer requests, but just because the customer says "I want a 7 string version of Jackson's Kelly" doesn't mean it's right when the guitar shape and headstock is blatantly copied to exact measurements.

It gets a little bit more tragic when small luthiers are involved. Honestly I do not believe that coming up with a simple new headstock design gives them every right to survive. It takes a bit more to stay successfull then being a one trick pony. Especially when small custom luthiers seem to appear on every corner. You need to come up with something that makes your guitars unique and desirable. If you succeed a simple copycat won't hurt your business.

I'm not understanding this "right to survive" based on a new headstock design. I think the main thing is that Ran is straight out copying the headstock design, body etc...putting a different headstock design (i dunno...like your own?) does change the look of the guitar and at a distance won't be mistaken for another brand.


Ran copies guitars down to the last detail, not just the outline. It's legal because they're in Poland and it would be illegal here if they did it. Just because company X is too expensive for you doesn't mean that company Y making a copy of another guitar for you is ethically, legally and morally OK. Ran's got one of those.

Also - if a simple copycat couldn't hurt small luthiers, I guess it's totally cool for me to copy Blackmachine, Oni, Sherman, Elysian and a host of other "small" luthiers trying to make something of themselves. They shouldn't take offense at all if I do that. Right?

Really? This is OK? REALLY?

If i saw this in my city, I'd seriously think "Holy shit, the guy has a Ken Lawrence!!" Then I'd look at the BACK of the headstock and see the Ran logo.

 

[Elysian]

GMW used to make incredible Charvel San Dimas copies (I know, I have one , and have owned several). He sold tons of those (and all were excellent guitars)
Fender put out the cease order and he cant do them anymore(but now you can get one from Charvel)
I don't really have a problem with what Ran is doing.
They are not trying to pass them off as Originals.
Now if I had them make me a 7 string Jackson soloist copy and the Headstock had a Jackson logo on it , I would have a problem with it.
If it has a ran logo I don't. Most likely you're going to get RAN to do something for you that the Original company wouldn't do anyway (case in point ,that 7 string neckthru JS that started this whole thread.). Do you think you can get one of those from Ibanez?(maybe if your last name is Satriani).
I'm even tempted to get a quote on one of those Yamaha lokking 7's, I really like that.

why would you have a problem with a headstock decal if you have no problem with a headstock? a headstock is a companies signature as much as that decal, your standards are at odds with themselves.

 

[kmanick]

Only because if I see a ran ogo on there I "Know" it's a copy. if there is no logo or if they put the originals logo on there then I don't know what I'm looking at.

My standards aren't at odds with themselves at all.
My GMW Charvel/Strat clone has a Charvel logo on it.
(Lee would not send me a GMW logo for it)
If I ever sold it I would remove the logo.
I can see how builders would have more of a problem with this (duh)
but the other thing you need to look at is that Ran is building "Indirect" copies.
I'll use that JS as an example again.
there is no 7 string Ibanez JS that is neck thru with a maple board. The specs are different.
I agree with you guys that they should use their own headstocks but as long as they make thes copies with different specs, and don't use the original logos and try to pass them off as originals I don't have a problem with it.
the other reason I don't have an issue with RAN is because they do "One Offs".
Now if they started putting out lines of these copies, I would think tht is lame and wrong.
If someone wants a one off copy of something with different specs and can't get it from the original builders, then companies like Ran will always be around.

 

[daemon barbeque]

I really hardly beleieve how people get mistaken between law ,respect and moral.
The work ,sweat ,brainstorming ,costs for testing ,nerves , and everything else used for designing a perfect instrument ,not just good looking ,but good fitting ,good sounding get's just ripped off.And you say it's "legal".Man who cares if it's legal or not. There are many things wich are legal in some countries but are not appropiate for many of us!
The guys at RAN can do nice guitars ,but all of the guitars are ripp-offs.

 

[Ruins]

this argument is like illigal mp3 or pirate windows. FUCK that.
i RANs and there is no problem with making a copy for a customer's request with his aspect to his licking

 

[canuck brian]

this argument is like illigal mp3 or pirate windows. FUCK that.
i RANs and there is no problem with making a copy for a customer's request with his aspect to his licking

Glad you think that way.

Can you give me the myspace for your band? I want to copy the music you make and put my name on it. It's all good because I'll use my name. Same thing.

 

[Ruins]

go on if it makes you happy to know that you are copying.
but is it already have been stated i find it also great that RAN can build you something to your request.

 

[canuck brian]

go on if it makes you happy to know that you are copying.
but is it already have been stated i find it also great that RAN can build you something to your request.

I give up.

 

[zorn]

I
Also - if a simple copycat couldn't hurt small luthiers, I guess it's totally cool for me to copy Blackmachine, Oni, Sherman, Elysian and a host of other "small" luthiers trying to make something of themselves. They shouldn't take offense at all if I do that. Right?

No, it is not cool and as you see people will notice it.
You have every right to feel offended by the copycats.

But it is happening every day and you will have to come up with a little more then just a shape or a form. Maybe your guitars have to sound better, you'll have a better customer service, offer more value for the money...whatever.
I have never seen copies of Artinger, Teuffel, Pagelli or GUS guitars so far. I have seen copies of the Parker shape but those guitars do not offer the same features as Parker guitars.
And what about all these respected US luthiers who do nothing then endless Strat, Tele or LP copies ???

 

[canuck brian]

And what about all these respected US luthiers who do nothing then endless Strat, Tele or LP copies ???

Find the ones that copy the headstock exactly. There are a few out there, but the majority don't. They make the subtle changes.

 

[ogisha007]

Dude, they are just following a customer's request, the law doesn't apply to them and they obviously don't give a fuck, so I don't see a point arguing over this.

Honestly, there are far worse things in the guitar world than RAN Guitars. Ed Roman, all those chinese copycats with real Gibson and Fender logos...

...also, when's the last time you saw Ibanez make a 7 string neck-thru 24 fret JS shaped guitar?

On another note, I'd really love to see some of your many original guitar designs. I doubt most of them are vastly different from what's available on the market.

Find the ones that copy the headstock exactly. There are a few out there, but the majority don't. They make the subtle changes.

That's just evading the law, but in the end, they would probably make it the same if they could and if the buyer wanted them to.

 

[canuck brian]

Dude, they are just following a customer's request, the law doesn't apply to them and they obviously don't give a fuck, so I don't see a point arguing over this.

Honestly, there are far worse things in the guitar world than RAN Guitars. Ed Roman, all those chinese copycats with real Gibson and Fender logos...

...also, when's the last time you saw Ibanez make a 7 string neck-thru 24 fret JS shaped guitar?

On another note, I'd really love to see some of your many original guitar designs. I doubt most of them are vastly different from what's available on the market.

You'd love to see some of my many original guitar designs? Find me ONE (literally, just one) where I even MENTION that I've got more than ONE design. I had drawn mine from scratch and I've never seen another body shape like mine. If it's out there, it would be news to me. Since you obviously know ZERO about me, why are you bothering to take shots at my endeavors into guitar building? You seriously think I'm applying a double standard to myself? I drew up the headstock on my last 7 by hand and someone pointed out that it's basically the SLS headstock, which I hadn't seen. Since that's the case, it's getting changed.

Besides that, if you had read anything I've already posted, you'd understand that changing the headstock would be enough.

I haven't seen Ibanez make a neck thru 7 24 fret seven string JS guitar, but I guarantee if I saw the one RAN made at a distance, i'd probably say I'd finally seen them making it.

I don't get this varying levels of ripping people off being acceptable in some cases (RAN) and not in others (Ed Roman). I just don't get the "Dude, they are just following a customer's request, the law doesn't apply to them and they obviously don't give a fuck, so I don't see a point arguing over this" thing.

We are aware that the law doesn't apply as they're in Poland; I believe we're debating the ethics and legalities of it, not whether someone is comfortable getting a guitar from another luthier because they'll do it cheaper than their dream brand.

That's just evading the law, but in the end, they would probably make it the same if they could and if the buyer wanted them to.

I eagerly await the list of luthiers that would knowingly deviate from their own design to straight copy Gibson. It's not evading the law by the way, it's OBEYING it. They make the changes necessary, no matter how little, to follow the law.

 

[ogisha007]

English is not my native, so I may not have been clear enough. The design thing was a statement to everyone, not just towards you. I'm genuinely curious as to how many truly original guitar designs have been made in the past 10 years or so.

Ripping off guitar shapes isn't just small luthier's business. ESP much? The Eclipse and the Alexi V seem oddly familiar...


Ran never said that those were their designs. Ed Roman claimed some of the stuff he didn't design as his own, is an overall douche and liar, and that's why I consider him unacceptable.

 

[thesimo]

I dont see the big deal , if i am an independent customer who is ordering a custom, i should be allowed to have any shape I like, dont i have the right to get the shape i like?

If it so happens to be a similar shape to ESP then thats just tough luck for ESP (i dont mean that in an arrogant way, but it is, its the nature of the beast), they cant take away my right to have a pointy guitar, because when it comes down to it, they are enforcing a shape, and that is a very difficult thing to do... and I dont think Ran should be enforcing what people can and can't have on behalf of ESP/Ibanez/whatever.

99% of Ran's customs are clones because everyone has their fav guitar shape, Chances are if you think of your ultimate guitar you think of ibanez model X + maple top Y etc.

Very few people have the imagination/balls to do a unique design and follow it through with a $4000 bill at the end. Including me.

rant over

 

[CapenCyber]

I have a custom on the way from Ran, when it gets here and I post pictures I fully expect to get comments to the effect that it is a rip off and stolen etc.

At the end of the day they would make me exactly what I want to a good quality and a good price, the company that came up with the shape it is based off could not. I bet that if you look closely most of these Ran customs have features that the original custom shop would not do.

Also don't start preaching about morals here because we all know that all of the big companies steal ideas off each other all the time, they only minutely change an angle here or there so they can get away with it.

To compare these Rans to the Ed Roman guitars or the chibanez guitars is just ridiculous, they are not pretending to be something they are not.
It's just a shape that can be drawn in 10 seconds, to compare it to a song or a novel or something is also ridiculous.

They are making guitars based upon work other people have done without giving them credit but I bet ENGL weren't the first company to make a combo tube amp in the usual configuration and I have one. What matters most is the overall quality and tailoring to the individuals need, Ran is the best for me so I chose it.

 

[daemon barbeque]

To compare these Rans to the Ed Roman guitars or the chibanez guitars is just ridiculous, they are not pretending to be something they are not.
It's just a shape that can be drawn in 10 seconds, to compare it to a song or a novel or something is also ridiculous.

If this is still "a 2 minute body shape copy" ,I can't argue anymore!
If this is "ethical" ,we live in different worlds!
Ethics are ethics people ,you don't break ethics just because customer wants it.Because customers want everything!

 

[CapenCyber]

Ethics are ethics people ,you don't break ethics just because customer wants it.Because customers want everything!

I want a product. The company that came up with the original shape won't do exactly what I want. Ran will. If the original company is too inflexible to match the customers request that is their fault.

 

[daemon barbeque]

I want a product. The company that came up with the original shape won't do exactly what I want. Ran will. If the original company is too inflexible to match the customers request that is their fault.

Umm.It's like asking Nike to make a shoe with Adidas on it ,3 stripes and adidas sole!Oh but Adidas didn't wanted to make it on cherryburst milkblue!!!And I wanted an Adidas with zoom air!
It doesn't make any sense to me.

Ofcourse they can copy or just reproduce stuff.
But look a their site.Just ripp-offs.You see everywhere ESP ,Jackson,Ibanez ,Dean with a RAN logo on it.
Any Jackson shape have sharkfins on it like the originals...Look at that Dean-ripped headstock Is it neccesarry to copy those "charactheristics"?

 

[kmanick]

If this is still "a 2 minute body shape copy" ,I can't argue anymore!
If this is "ethical" ,we live in different worlds!
Ethics are ethics people ,you don't break ethics just because customer wants it.Because customers want everything!

I have to agree on this one.
At least Change the logo shape. Ran must have their own logo, they should just use that (Like GMW did on their Charvel clones)