Ban for specific forums

[vilk]

I saw that a couple of users got banned for arguing in the P&CE forum. But I was just thinking, it's kinda not fair to them to be banned from the guitar sections of this website. I mean, obviously a P&CE is going to breed arguments--I mean it has politics in the title of the forum. I feel like making that forum and then banning people for arguing in it is almost like entrapment (but that's just my very humble opinion).


So I was thinking what if we made it so bans were only for certain sections of the forum. Like, once I complimented someones guitar--but failed to realize it was in the marketplace, a ban-able offense. I was locked out of the whole website, even the sections that are just educational and not for buying/selling. But really, I had only broken the rules of the Marketplace--there's nothing wrong with complimenting guitars anywhere else. So like, it's fine if some mod makes the judgement call to ban someone for arguing in the argument forum, but you could just ban them from only that forum and then they could still contribute positively in the music sections.


idk, it's just an idea I thought would promote fairness.

 

[Edika]

While this is not unreasonable to consider I don't know if the logistics of setting up the forum to ban on specific parts of a forum is straight forward or feasible.
In any case however a ban is meant as a "punishment" for people that take things too far. If they only get banned in PC&E but are able to enjoy and comment on the rest of the forum then there's nothing to motivate them for being more careful and considerate when discussing next time in the specific sub forum. It can turn to a kind of "I can be an a-hole in that part of the forum whenever I'm not banned there but I can still navigate on the rest of it".
You would think that we're rational adults that would learn from our mistakes with partial ramifications. You would think.

 

[vilk]

You would think that rational adults don't take internet arguments to heart so it shouldn't matter if they're allowed to happen. Many people find arguments engaging in a mostly positive way. I do, at least.

I don't think banning people from a forum should be used as 'punishment'. I didn't think anyone thought that way. I thought it was to prevent people from mucking up the forum. No one wants to read a thread that's just a back and forth between two people whose only real issue is with each other. But that's not especially prone to happening in sections of this site that are more concerned with arch tops and flame quality.

Moderators are supposed to keep the halls clean, not be parents. At least, I thought this is what I and everyone else believes. I guess maybe I'm mistaken and it's only my opinion.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

They weren't banned for "arguing in the argument forum", they were banned for being childish, petty blowhards with the Report and PM systems. They can hate each other all they want, but when I'm constantly getting emails and reports that amount to "BAN HIM BECAUSE HE WAS WRONG AND A DOO DOO HEAD", daily, I'm going to put an end to it.

The fact they're both serial issues, and have been for years just made the decision all the easier.

Happy New Year everyone.

Of note, a ban simply makes it impossible to comment and PM on the forum, you still have access to the general areas of the site. You just can't use your account features. So if I ban you for being a jerk in OT you can still view the NAMM threads in the guitar parts of the forum.

 

[vilk]

^Well that's fine. I might ban people too if they were constantly trying to be tattletales to me. And those guys were absolutely turning that thread to sh*t.

But those two users and their issues aside, I still think that making bans forum-specific is a good idea.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Ah yes, because nothing makes people want to positively contribute to the forum like being banned from part of it. No way that will lead to spill over and acting out.

 

[vilk]

idk, everyone hated Eric Christian because it was a ridiculous f***ing assh*le on the GD forums, but I found myself being surprised that I enjoyed some of his posts and found them even helpful in the MD forums.

I'm sure in your modding experience you've seen it spill over. Sometimes I wish the MD and GD were two different websites, because I myself like to say raunchy things here and there but I am terribly afraid of being perma-banned from the music half where I generally never write anything raunchy anyhow because it's about guitars and not life.

 

[tedtan]

They weren't banned for "arguing in the argument forum", they were banned for being childish, petty blowhards with the Report and PM systems. They can hate each other all they want, but when I'm constantly getting emails and reports that amount to "BAN HIM BECAUSE HE WAS WRONG AND A DOO DOO HEAD", daily, I'm going to put an end to it.

The fact they're both serial issues, and have been for years just made the decision all the easier.

Happy New Year everyone.

Of note, a ban simply makes it impossible to comment and PM on the forum, you still have access to the general areas of the site. You just can't use your account features. So if I ban you for being a jerk in OT you can still view the NAMM threads in the guitar parts of the forum.

Thanks, Max. And a Happy New Year to you as well.

 

[Konfyouzd]

You can still view the content on the site by clicking "view cached version" from Google unless you've been IP banned, I think. Typically--and correct me if I'm wrong--IP bans are done for people who've been perma'd.

Not allowing you to participate in conversations on the whole of the forum seems to kind of drive the point home that your previous behavior was unacceptable. And I've been banned many many times.

And yea... I remember Eric Christian. I think he earned a lot of his bans, but he also came back a lot of times too. The things he contributed that were useful could always be saved until he's allowed access to the site again, which I suppose was what he did.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

You don't even have to do that, KJ.

Just clear cache and cookies and you'll be brought to the public site.

IP bans are very seldom given and only in extreme cases such as known Marketplace scammers and folks who create tons of troll accounts. In the past five years I can only think of maybe a dozen.

 

[Konfyouzd]

Ahh I didn't know that. Thanks.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Because I can't sleep, I thought I'd delve a little deeper.

I saw that a couple of users got banned for arguing in the P&CE forum.

No one gets banned just for having a disagreement. What they get banned for is how they present themselves, such as hurling insults or making homophobic/racist remarks.

That escalates the situation from a discussion to simple mud slinging and there's no place for that here. It just breeds more animosity on both sides if it's ignored and in almost ten years I've very seldom seen full out tantrums diffuse themselves.

But I was just thinking, it's kinda not fair to them to be banned from the guitar sections of this website.

How so?

If you knowingly break the rules governing the entire forum, you will no longer be able to interact with the forum.

Remember, a ban is simply the removal of the ability to actively participate. Banned users can still "lurk".

I mean, obviously a P&CE is going to breed arguments--I mean it has politics in the title of the forum. I feel like making that forum and then banning people for arguing in it is almost like entrapment (but that's just my very humble opinion).

Again, arguing isn't against the rules and only crosses into being "ban worthy" once insults/attacks take place.

So I was thinking what if we made it so bans were only for certain sections of the forum.

In a perfect world, that might be a nifty idea, but speaking from experience, it's just not going to make a difference in either direction.

Like, once I complimented someones guitar--but failed to realize it was in the marketplace, a ban-able offense. I was locked out of the whole website, even the sections that are just educational and not for buying/selling. But really, I had only broken the rules of the Marketplace--there's nothing wrong with complimenting guitars anywhere else. So like, it's fine if some mod makes the judgement call to ban someone for arguing in the argument forum, but you could just ban them from only that forum and then they could still contribute positively in the music sections.

You were locked out of the website per your own ignorance, as you could easily view the forum during your incredibly short ban.

idk, it's just an idea I thought would promote fairness.

In what world is coddling the few who break the rules, cause issues, and are poor members of this community at the expense of the time and effort the good users and small staff who help run this place fair?

You would think that rational adults don't take internet arguments to heart so it shouldn't matter if they're allowed to happen. Many people find arguments engaging in a mostly positive way. I do, at least.

Again, arguments aren't the issue. Folks are welcome to disagree and discuss thier opinions.

I don't think banning people from a forum should be used as 'punishment'. I didn't think anyone thought that way. I thought it was to prevent people from mucking up the forum. No one wants to read a thread that's just a back and forth between two people whose only real issue is with each other. But that's not especially prone to happening in sections of this site that are more concerned with arch tops and flame quality.

It's not a punishment against the banned user, it's a tool to keep the muck away. You're not taxed or charged when banned, you're just not able to create more of a mess for awhile.

Moderators are supposed to keep the halls clean, not be parents. At least, I thought this is what I and everyone else believes. I guess maybe I'm mistaken and it's only my opinion.

How is enforcing a basic set of rules "being parents"? You do realize that most of the rules enforced are there to keep the site from coming under legal scrutiny, right? When sites have porn, gore, threats, racist and homophobic content, etc. they open themselves up to all kinds of issues.

^Well that's fine. I might ban people too if they were constantly trying to be tattletales to me. And those guys were absolutely turning that thread to sh*t.

Once again, these bans had to do with two users who just wouldn't stop trying to pick fights with each other and needed some time to cool off. The content of threads wasn't considered.

But those two users and their issues aside, I still think that making bans forum-specific is a good idea.

Can you please explain that? Given what I've said, and all the folks who lose thier minds at thread closures.

idk, everyone hated Eric Christian because it was a ridiculous f***ing assh*le on the GD forums, but I found myself being surprised that I enjoyed some of his posts and found them even helpful in the MD forums.

Eric's poor attitude spilled over into the music forums plenty. If I had a nickel everytime he picked a fight with a 16 year old because he thought the band they liked were "fags" I wouldn't have to work.

I'm sure in your modding experience you've seen it spill over. Sometimes I wish the MD and GD were two different websites, because I myself like to say raunchy things here and there but I am terribly afraid of being perma-banned from the music half where I generally never write anything raunchy anyhow because it's about guitars and not life.

Thankfully, this isn't the only forum on the Internet.

 

[vilk]

^It is to me...

Also, the bit about parenting was in reference to other dude who said that banning should be used to teach them a lesson.

I understand what you mean, that the rule isn't against just arguing but against making personal fights. But even you have to admit that the line there can be really thin and easy to snap, and especially when you're writing lots and lots about stuff you feel strongly about in the P&CE forum.

I guess then it's just a thing only with me, maybe I just don't have a real problem with the internet being a rowdy place, and of the internet forums out there I feel like this one is so tame... even some of the people who get banned don't seem so unreasonable in the context of how people in general behave online. But I've seen many other users talk about how this place is great because it's a safe haven for them. So I guess it's good that you are strict. But I would hope that people who are very internet-sensitive would have the sense to not dive too deep into a P&CE thread.

 

[tedtan]

But even you have to admit that the line there can be really thin and easy to snap, and especially when you're writing lots and lots about stuff you feel strongly about in the P&CE forum.

The two who were banned had been warned numerous times across several threads that they needed to cool it (and that's just in public - who knows how many times via PM?), so it didn't come out of nowhere.

I guess then it's just a thing only with me, maybe I just don't have a real problem with the internet being a rowdy place, and of the internet forums out there I feel like this one is so tame

Like Max said, its largely about liability of the site's owner, not just protecting people's feelings.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

But even you have to admit that the line there can be really thin and easy to snap, and especially when you're writing lots and lots about stuff you feel strongly about in the P&CE forum.

There is no "thin line", a personal attack is a personal attack. You can veil it and try to not be overt, but the intent is plenty clear 99.99% of the time.

Saying: "In my opinion you're acting as if you were a person who has thier head firmly planted in thier rectum and is quite unsure of thier sexual orientation. I'm not calling you that, it's just my opinion that you are like that to me." is still an attack and veiling it as such insults everyone's intelligence.

Also, we're all adults[ish], if you NEED to insult someone, you're character is quite lacking and probably isn't someone worth keeping around in the long run. Insults in the context of a serious discussion is absolutely childish in the worst way.

of the internet forums out there I feel like this one is so tame...

Then all the hard work is worth it. A better compliment cannot be found.

But I've seen many other users talk about how this place is great because it's a safe haven for them. So I guess it's good that you are strict. But I would hope that people who are very internet-sensitive would have the sense to not dive too deep into a P&CE thread.

The most ironic part of this is that it's very rarely those on the receiving end of insults who get thier feathers ruffled. It's usually the folks who are so quick to let the attacks fly who flip out when no one takes the bait or everyone piles on how stupid it is to insult someone if you want to be taken seriously.

The best example would be the LGBT thread, not a single LGBT member has come to me saying they're insulted but I'll get a pile of reports from everyone when someone feels like being a homophobe.

 

[TheKindred]

any chance of the public ban list being reinstated?

perusing threads where banhammer has dropped tends to give some perspective on what is/isn't kosher/halal around here.

plus ... schadenfreude

 

[ghostred7]

They weren't banned for "arguing in the argument forum", they were banned for being childish, petty blowhards with the Report and PM systems.

I miss all the fun

 

[MaxOfMetal]

any chance of the public ban list being reinstated?

perusing threads where banhammer has dropped tends to give some perspective on what is/isn't kosher/halal around here.

plus ... schadenfreude

The PBL served it's purpose, I don't see it coming back anytime soon, especially now that the place is so "tame".

The current rule set (linked in my sig) has been around for almost half a decade, I don't think any examples are really needed.

One of the the reasons I try to address every thread like this is to create an open dialogue in which the rules, bans, etc can be discussed to clarify anything.

I miss all the fun

You didn't miss much, as most of the drama occurred privately. It wasn't even that entertaining. You'd expect two guys who have Internet fighting as hobbies to be more witty.

 

[asher]

You didn't miss much, as most of the drama occurred privately. It wasn't even that entertaining. You'd expect two guys who have Internet fighting as hobbies to be more witty.

So SSJ was sending streams of stupid gifs?

 

[Xaios]

The current rule set (linked in my sig) has been around for almost half a decade, I don't think any examples are really needed.

Tangentially, if you communicate to Alex regularly, can you please point out that the "Rules" page linked at the top of the site still doesn't link to the actual enforced rule set in your (and my) sig? I've repeatedly contacted Alex about it myself, and he hasn't done anything about it. I have seen instances (although thankfully not as much recently) where relatively new posters have gotten banned for offenses that they probably didn't know were against the forum rules, simply because the rules they had consulted weren't the same set of rules that the moderators actually use.