BP... wow... just wow...

[orb451]

First, I'm all for offshore drilling. Yes you read that right. Same with wind, water and nuclear power. If setting up a wind farm somewhere hurts some fucking birds, oh well. If setting up a dam fucks over some fish, oh well. And yes, if drilling offshore means some stupid looking pelican gets it's ass covered in an oil slick, so be it.

Now, if it turns out the company involved lets some kind environmental disaster happen because they were short-sighted. Or tried to "maximize" their bottom line and cut corners somewhere, then that is a VERY different story.

I don't know what the truth is regarding BP's oil disaster. Whether it was just an accident, or if it was an accident that was the result of them being cheap, greedy bastards. If it's the former, I can understand that. Even a well designed system is bound to fail in unexpected ways at some point. If it's the latter though, that to me is unforgivable. If it's a mix of both, the question should then be to what degree and bottom line, clean it up, fix it and pay for the mistake.

With all that said, I ran across this article:

BP lobbied UK over Libyan prisoner transfer case - Yahoo! News

So this Lockerbie bomber kills 270 people, he's convicted on January 31st 2001. To me at least, that should have been his last day on Earth. Game over. Done and done. But no, they put him in prison to rot. What a fucking surprise. So he sits in prison for a few years and then wouldn't ya know it, BP starts lobbying (in addition to his own efforts), to FREE THIS GUY. Due to "health reasons". Now it turns out his prognosis in only having a few months to live might have been a sham.

Turns out he might live a lot longer. And he's free. After killing 270 people. And the fucking oil company HELPED because they didn't want to hurt their chances of offshore drilling contracts in Libya where this piece of shit is from.

What. The. Fuck.

I'm sure I'm probably alone in not being against offshore drilling etc, especially given what's happened. But that being said, am I alone in thinking this guy should have rode the lightning years ago? And that letting him go, and on top of that finding out that BP of all companies was aiding his release is like a giant fuck you from them to us and all those poor folks involved.

 

[Adam Of Angels]

First, I'm all for offshore drilling. Yes you read that right. Same with wind, water and nuclear power. If setting up a wind farm somewhere hurts some fucking birds, oh well. If setting up a dam fucks over some fish, oh well. And yes, if drilling offshore means some stupid looking pelican gets it's ass covered in an oil slick, so be it.

This wasn't the point of your thread, I know, but still -

 

[orb451]

This wasn't the point of your thread, I know, but still -

Sorry man, that's the way I feel. Everyone wants cheap affordable power, oil, electricity, etc but no one wants to get it done because the hippies get their balls in an uproar everytime some fucking fish is hurt, or a bird, or a beaver or some other god damned animal. That to me is what's fucked about alternative energy.

And I recognize that probably means I'm solo in that line of thinking... Good to see you back though

 

[Opeth666]

and this is why our government and politics are so messed up... because noone cares about the ecosystems and environment.

 

[MorbidTravis]

Sorry man, that's the way I feel. Everyone wants cheap affordable power, oil, electricity, etc but no one wants to get it done because the hippies get their balls in an uproar everytime some fucking fish is hurt, or a bird, or a beaver or some other god damned animal. That to me is what's fucked about alternative energy.

And I recognize that probably means I'm solo in that line of thinking... Good to see you back though

i feel you, somewhere down the line something is going to get hurt. even if we are trying to find better ways to help the ecosystem with finding new ways to have less polluted energy.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

and this is why our government and politics are so messed up... because noone cares about the ecosystems and environment.

The "government and politics are so messed up" because people are inherently self serving and endlessly greedy.

 

[orb451]

i feel you, somewhere down the line something is going to get hurt. even if we are trying to find better ways to help the ecosystem with finding new ways to have less polluted energy.

Exactly What's the saying? You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs? Or something like that...

 

[Razzy]

The only reason this BP thing turned into such a disaster, is BECAUSE of the ban on offshore drilling.

Think about it.

If the damn pipeline wasn't so far underneath the surface of the ocean, it would've been WAY easier to fix.

If they had been drilling offshore, it would be MUCH shallower water, and this would never have occurred in the first place.

Even from an environmental perspective, offshore drilling is safer, than deep water drilling.

 

[chaosxcomplex]

It looks as if the original point was lost...BP essentially got this guy freed (just going by the OP's summary of the story) after blowing up almost 300 people...seems a little strange to me. Scratch that, it seems REALLY FUCKED UP! WTF man? I have always known that there is some shady crap going on with the governments of the world (not just the U.S.) and situations like this just re-affirm those beliefs.

I just deleted a long rant going on and on about things that would make me look like a crazy person to most people...haha

 

[vampiregenocide]

Sorry man, that's the way I feel. Everyone wants cheap affordable power, oil, electricity, etc but no one wants to get it done because the hippies get their balls in an uproar everytime some fucking fish is hurt, or a bird, or a beaver or some other god damned animal. That to me is what's fucked about alternative energy.

And I recognize that probably means I'm solo in that line of thinking... Good to see you back though

I agree to an extent, but thats a harsh way of putting it. We should try to minimize out impact on nature wherever we can, its not fair we just go around sucking the life out of this planet. I want there to be some places left where you can go and not see horrible great big wind turbines, or nuclear power stations.

 

[orb451]

I agree to an extent, but thats a harsh way of putting it. We should try to minimize out impact on nature wherever we can, its not fair we just go around sucking the life out of this planet. I want there to be some places left where you can go and not see horrible great big wind turbines, or nuclear power stations.

I hear ya man, and I'm sure there will *always* be some pristine places left for people to enjoy. I just wish more people understood that there will also *always* be some kind of environmental impact. Should it be minimized? To an extent. That's my contention. But that *extent* should only go so far. The tree-huggers don't want to harm anything or anyone, ever. And so we pay through the nose for our energy and when alternatives get proposed, they're shutdown because the aforementioned tree-huggers can't possibly fathom that our needs might, or should in some instances, come before furry furry rabbits.

 

[Varcolac]

So this Lockerbie bomber kills 270 people, he's convicted on January 31st 2001. To me at least, that should have been his last day on Earth. Game over. Done and done. But no, they put him in prison to rot. What a fucking surprise.

We haven't killed anyone for a crime since 1964 and we're not going to start just because you think that an eye for an eye is "justice." Europe doesn't do the death penalty. We have a convention on human rights which explicitly abolishes it.

I agree that BP lobbying for a terrorist's release is shady as all fuck, but you keep your hands off the way we do justice.

Well, keep your hands off the way we do justice until greedy fucking oil companies get mass-murderers released, at least...

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Well, keep your hands off the way we do justice until greedy fucking oil companies get mass-murderers released, at least...

Well. He's been released so can we put our hands on now?

 

[orb451]

We haven't killed anyone for a crime since 1964 and we're not going to start just because you think that an eye for an eye is "justice." Europe doesn't do the death penalty.

Killing him wouldn't be an eye for an eye. For that to happen we'd have to kill him, his family, his friends and everyone he's probably ever known to pay for all ~270 people that died as a result of his actions. I'd be all for that too by the way

And like Max said, he's free now, so is he fair game yet????

 

[Varcolac]

So you'd be all for killing 269 innocents along with the single murderer to balance the books. That's... rather despicable, and a little depressing.

Yeah, sure, he's free game. Just remember Libya does have a death penalty, so if you want to collect his eyes, you'll find yours will be wanted in return.

 

[stuz719]

BP are a company operating in a free enterprise model. Maximising their profits is what they are about. It's basic economics, it's the way a free market works. Legislation is there to limit activities such as offshore drilling to control environmental impacts.

If you genuinely believe that there will "always be some pristine places for people to enjoy" then I'm afraid you're mistaken. The whole point of the ecosystem is that no part of it is completely unconnected to everything else.

The evidence to convict Mr. al-Megrahi was somewhat questionable in many people's eyes - although I guess by your support for the death penalty you believe all criminal justice systems to be infallible and disagree with having any form of appeals process.

This lobbying is a natural function of a free market company seeking to maximise its profits. If you don't like it I'm afraid it's the basis of the whole Western economy and you need to get used to it.

 

[orb451]

So you'd be all for killing 269 innocents along with the single murderer to balance the books. That's... rather despicable, and a little depressing.

Yeah, sure, he's free game. Just remember Libya does have a death penalty, so if you want to collect his eyes, you'll find yours will be wanted in return.

Well since we're speaking in hypotheticals, why not? He, or someone if you buy into the conspiracy theories, thought that taking ~250 innocent lives (not including others on the ground) was perfectly fine to advance their *cause du jour* why not, hypothetically, take him and everyone he knows out?

You see, you seem to think, and maybe I'm wrong so correct me if I am, that the death penalty is about revenge. Or justice. Or an "eye for an eye". In my view, that's just one small part of it. The death penalty is about sending a message. The same way doing "hard time" for a crime committed is about sending a message. It says "if you fuck up, you'll have your freedom taken away... if you fuck up bad enough, you'll have your LIFE taken away" And the thinking goes, that it and practically all punishment, acts as a deterrent of sorts. And yes, in the case of doing "hard time", rehabilitation and redemption are also possible goals or outcomes.

Does it always work that way, in the case of any state imposed punishment, death penalty or not? No of course not. But the death penalty specifically is not about rehabilitation obviously, it's about sending that message very clearly, that certain crimes will not be tolerated.

Honestly I don't care if you agree with me, nor do I care if you find it, or me, despicable because of it. That's your opinion and you have a right to it.

 

[orb451]

BP are a company operating in a free enterprise model. Maximising their profits is what they are about. It's basic economics, it's the way a free market works. Legislation is there to limit activities such as offshore drilling to control environmental impacts.

Agreed for the most part.

If you genuinely believe that there will "always be some pristine places for people to enjoy" then I'm afraid you're mistaken. The whole point of the ecosystem is that no part of it is completely unconnected to everything else.

I live in Los Angeles. In this general area we have more people than some of you have in your entire countries. This is not to brag. This is not an insult. It's just a fact. I live in a HIGHLY populated place. Yet, I can still drive an hour or two out of the city and find places without a soul around. Places untouched by developers, yuppies, tree-huggers or anyone else. Those places aren't pristine? And moreover, the further you go, the MORE places you can find that are equally untouched. I don't believe that's some kind of weird phenomenon. I think certain parts of our country, even our state, will always remain fundamentally untouched and pristine and yes I think that's a good thing.

The evidence to convict Mr. al-Megrahi was somewhat questionable in many people's eyes

So that means he gets a free pass? If he's been found guilty wrongfully, it is up to him, his attorneys, and the courts to hear the evidence and decide. It seems to me they tried that. And it seems to me, they failed. And so, based on where he's from and the greed of some companies and the new depths to which they'll sink to "maximize profits" he's released. Believe me, I anxiously await the outpouring of evidence that exonerates him in this wrong-doing. That would at least put one issue possibly to rest. However it would still not sway my thinking as far as BP goes, if they're willing to go through the trouble of getting him out.

- although I guess by your support for the death penalty you believe all criminal justice systems to be infallible and disagree with having any form of appeals process.

Nice try. Yes I support the death penalty. No I don't believe any and all of the criminal justice systems of the world to be in any way infallible. Did I say that? Or was that just something you assumed? Most likely the latter. I don't disagree with any form of appeals process, they are there for a good reason and serve a valid function. If someone has been wrongfully prosecuted, they *should* have the opportunity to clear their names and at the very least *try* to live out normal, productive lives.

This lobbying is a natural function of a free market company seeking to maximise its profits. If you don't like it I'm afraid it's the basis of the whole Western economy and you need to get used to it.

Again, let's assume for arguments sake that this guy was guilty. You're going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that BP's lobbying of the UK government and *wink* *wink* nudging of the Scottish government to let this guy go because it impacts their bottom line is somehow natural? Seriously? Gimme a fucking break. Natural lobbying is them sending money left, right and center to government's to let them build their oil rigs, in whatever numbers they see fit, in any location they see fit. Environmental restrictions be damned. That gives them the inroads to drill wherever they want, however they want. Natural lobbying also might entail removing safety restrictions, engineering standards and a whole host of other issues in getting more money.

Trying to pay off governments with back room deals to get a CONVICTED FUCKING MURDERER OFF THE HOOK AND OUT OF JAIL IS NOT. Get it? See the difference? They're not the same. Not the same ballpark. Not the same game. Apples and Oranges. *You* may think they're the same, that they're all part of the free market just doing it's thing, but they're not. Not even close.

 

[sevenstringj]

The only reason this BP thing turned into such a disaster, is BECAUSE of the ban on offshore drilling.

Think about it.

If the damn pipeline wasn't so far underneath the surface of the ocean, it would've been WAY easier to fix.

If they had been drilling offshore, it would be MUCH shallower water, and this would never have occurred in the first place.

Even from an environmental perspective, offshore drilling is safer, than deep water drilling.

Sure it'd be easier to fix. But if it blew, the oil would reach shore that much faster. So, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other?

 

[RenegadeDave]

Sure it'd be easier to fix. But if it blew, the oil would reach shore that much faster. So, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other?

Would it have leaked oil into the ocean for 80 some odd days now if we could have repaired it in shallow water by the weeks end?

To me it's 1 in 1 and a half dozen the other.

Then you consider the moratoriums on all of the inland reserves that are peppered throughout the US that are off limits thanks to NIMBY types and anti-capitalists brandishing the EPA and it really starts to look silly.

If a well exploded in ANWR, how difficult would that have been to fix?