Can a radial neck joint be done by hand?

[MoonJelly]

I'm a fan of bolt-necks, but more often find myself taking the option of a set or thru neck construction because the heel can be almost non-existent. I have noticed that some builders, i.e. Ken Parker and Ulrich Teuffel, can build a bolt neck joint that is radiused allllll the way down the neck, so very little heel is needed to support the joint.

examples:

I know it's very likely they accomplish this with the aid of CNC milling machinery, but if you were to do it by hand, how might this be accomplished? I have made a couple of barbaric attempts using carving tools but I haven't accomplished anything this clean. Can anyone conceive a template system or method that would give such a uniform result as is pictured here?

Thanks for any ideas you can offer.

 

[HighPotency]

Definitely looks like CNC milling marks in the neck pocket of the last picture. I feel like the best approach may be to make stepped routes and finishing the rest with a combination of drum sanding, rasps, and hand sanding. Kind of like a reverse carved top. You'd need radius guides and there is still the element of doing it by hand which would be challenging and risky, but that's what comes to mind for me.

 

[Lemons]

It might be possible with a router sled and a radius-ed cradle to hold the router, in my head it makes sense but sounds like a b**** to set up.

 

[jwade]

What about using something like this:

 

[Petar Bogdanov]

Anything that is done by CNC can be accomplished with a milling machine. Or even an improvised milling machine, in this case. Just a jig that lets the router move in a straight line, and a lot of shims/adapters.

Of course, an experienced woodworker could also do it with curved chisels and some gauge tools. Accomplishing precision by hand isn't a problem, if a method of measurement is found, that is consistent, precise and easy.

 

[LiveOVErdrive]

I feel like if you want a low profile bolt on joint and you're going by hand, you'd be better off making a kind of neck tenon like they use on set necks (square but smaller than the neck radius) and just using bolts. That way the neck can flow directly into the body, just like a set or thru neck, but still a bolt on.

 

[xwmucradiox]

The joint in the top picture is not much more compact than an AANJ on an Ibanez S. It just looks that way because a lot of material is carved away on the upper and lower horns. If you want low profile just use a thinner body and more surface area into the body for the joint. The radial neck pocket's primary benefit is alignment. You cant shift the neck side to side if its elliptical.

 

[MoonJelly]

Thank you guys! There are definitely a few things this makes me want to try. I think first I'm going to try a stepping process with router templates and refine the pocket with rasps/sandpaper. If I can't get it perfect I think some thing like LiveOVErdrive's idea could have the same appeal but be easier to pull off.
I have a hunch it'll be awhile before this makes it onto a finished instrument, but I'll post some test pieces soon. In the meantime if anyone has other bright ideas about a process, this is like gold to me! Thank you

 

[marcwormjim]

+1 on the Parker radial joint being purely for alignment. Wanting a radiused pocket for the sake of a smaller heel is like trying to reinvent the wheel by selling concave road.

 

[Hollowway]

You mean just have a neck that goes right into the body? You can sand off the neck heel on the neck by hand very easily. That portion of wood is not needed to support the neck. I personally hate a heel (like on PRS guitars) and prefer the neck be the same shape all the way til it hits the body.

 

[MoonJelly]

The joint in the top picture is not much more compact than an AANJ on an Ibanez S. It just looks that way because a lot of material is carved away on the upper and lower horns. If you want low profile just use a thinner body and more surface area into the body for the joint. The radial neck pocket's primary benefit is alignment. You cant shift the neck side to side if its elliptical.

+1 on the Parker radial joint being purely for alignment. Wanting a radiused pocket for the sake of a smaller heel is like trying to reinvent the wheel by selling concave road.

I get where you guys are coming from. This is one of those things I have spent wayyyyy more time thinking about than is necessary/healthy, and ultimately I'm just fascinated by how unusual the construction is. That's the main reason I want to reproduce it.

Now if I can create a heel that is more than shaved back than an AANJ, or a Nitefly, even 2-3 mm thinner, that's really not a big deal, but in my OCD kind of perspective it's cool that I did that. I fully acknowledge it's really not that important, it's just for my own gratification and pleasure.

 

[DistinguishedPapyrus]

You can also get a smaller heel by using tee nuts inserted into the heel with large flat head bolts, where only 3 or even just 2 bolts may be needed. They create a great amount of down force and can hold tightly, making it possible to remove more of the heel material that would otherwise be there for the third and fourth bolts.

 

[Shane Sanders]

The goal of a radial neck pocket is to increase surface area without increasing footprint. There's also an increase in stability and if it's cut properly a dependable alignment.

Read the short section on 3D Neck Coupling here and also study some of the CAD renderings you'll find on the site. It is much easier to see than describe.

Cheers!

 

[odibrom]

On to the original question, if it is possible to do by hand... I say so, and there is no need for big tools, only patience, lots of it. Here is how.

As one can carefully build/carve some radius blocks for the fingerboard surface, one can also build the same for the back of the neck... think about it... and so one builds/carves a positive and a negative, one for each of the joint elements...

 

[DistinguishedPapyrus]

If I were to try to do it by hand in my garage, or with simple power tools like a router and table saw, I'd use plenty of MDF templates and jigs for sure though.

It's kinda hard to explain the idea I have in my head for how to do this but I'll try to, so here goes:

for the neck - build a jig sort of like a radius jig for the fretboard, but obviously a much smaller diameter. make it so the neck swivels side to side along it's long axis with the router suspended above it. the router is able to travel in a straight line down the length of the neck as the neck swivels side to side in a set radius, this will cut the back of the neck.

Install truss rods and fretboard first, stick the neck to the jig with double sided tape while the fretboard is still flat, then once the neck contour is finished cut the fret slots, radius the fretboard... etc.



For the body - table saw, with a blade the same diameter as the back of the neck. the body is on some sort of a very solid and stable sled jig that lets it slide in a straight line perpendicular to the table saw blade, with a stop point of how far into the body you want the neck to go. you raise the saw blade so it's only cutting maybe 2-5 hundredths per pass and slide the body toward the blade. Scary, yes, but it'll work, I've done similar things before to shave down a neck blank til it was flat, like back in the day before I had a router. Might also try removing most of the material first by moving the body over the blade, turn the machine on and raise the blade up into the body til it gets close to the right height, just do this multiple times until the pocket is 99% formed and then do the sliding trick described above to make smoother final passes, maybe only shave off 0.025" or less for the final pass.

finish up the pocket by sanding it with a piece of PVC pipe wrapped in sand paper. and as far as the PVC pipe thing goes, you should be able to find two sections that fit together in a joint, so one could be the used for its outer diameter, sanding the neck pocket, and the other section could be used for it's inner diameter, sanding the back of the neck, and the two would match up. whatever that diameter may be, that's the size of table saw blade you'd need to find.

Also, cut the neck pocket before shaping out the body, so you know for sure your neck will sit in line with the center of the body.

Anyway, if all that makes any sense that's how I'd try to approach such a design if I were gonna do it. I think it'd get you a precise cylindrical shaped neck pocket.