"Digital" Pups?

[Carl Kolchak]

I was wondering how long it's going to be before someone makes a digital pup capable of running pup "sims."

 

[purpledc]

To an extent the variax has done that. As well as roland Synth. But I think the thing holding back say a modular system is just cost and space. The tech would need to get good enough that they could squeeze all of it into a guitar without outboard equipment. I'm not sure it would be something most are interested in. I find many people choose a pickup for a certain guitar and stick with it. At least for me its something that stays a constant with a certain guitar and I look for versatility in my amp and variety of guitars.

 

[Carl Kolchak]

I was imaging a type of pup that's essentially neutral in response, but could have its sonic parameters tweakable via a USB connector to mimic the responses of any existing pup.

 

[Sumsar]

My understanding might be wrong, but isn't the Fishman Fluence kinda digital / pup sim? As I understod it they have tried to make a new type of pickup that is fairly neutral, although it still uses the usual magnet types, but then is able to similuate various style of pickups with that magnet type?

I guess part of the issue is what to similate? Right now Fishman's have an active (I assume voiced to a 6 string emg 81 set or something similar) and a passive which is like a PAF or something like that.
But would Fishman be interested in trying to emulate say various Duncan or Dimarzio pickups, and should they then spilt the income or how? Alternatively Duncan/dimarzio should make a fluence rip off and then similuate all their own pickups, but then they would sell less pickups if you could just buy one and have them all? So for Duncan/Dimarzio it doesn't really make sense.

Fishman can't directly rip off Duncan/Dimazio, but all their signature sets could be said to be emulation of the artist old pickup. For example Tosin Abasis set could be a replication of what he was trying to do with Dimarzio (can't remember the name of his sig pup) and the set he used while he was with Duncan.

Of course they could do like the amp sims and make stupid replacement names, like Sistortion (Seymour Duncan Distortion), but then I guess there might be a lot of law suits. Anyone know how the usual amp sims gets past copyeng amp sounds without paying money to the original brands?

 

[Carl Kolchak]

Anyone know how the usual amp sims gets past copyeng amp sounds without paying money to the original brands?

In essence, that would like be trying to copyright a certain ratio of lows to mids to highs. Something that is just too broad to be considered the property of one person/company. Imagine trying to copyright the sound of your voice for instance.

 

[Sumsar]

In essence, that would like be trying to copyright a certain ratio of lows to mids to highs. Something that is just too broad to be considered the property of one person/company. Imagine trying to copyright the sound of your voice for instance.

Yes of cause you are right - I guess it is the same where every amp is basicly based on one of two different circuit and a pickup is just cobber around some magnets all based on the same principle.

 

[Lemonbaby]

The technology to add an EQ to an active PU is already available and could be integrated. The real dynamic behavious of a PU is a little more complicated and would drown your batteries quite quickly although technically possible today.

My understanding might be wrong, but isn't the Fishman Fluence kinda digital / pup sim?

To my knowledge, the Fluence PUs are still coils although produced in different way (from the looks I'd say it's simply stacked PCBs w/ etched copper traces forming the coils) that allows for very low tolerances, so the real device is close to the simulation that's likely done before to achieve a specific sound. These “coils“ have a low heigt as well and two of those are stacked around the magnets, so you really switch between two different sets of coils for the two sounds.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

look into cycfi pickups, they have an active set with tweakable eq settings (they use software to profile other pickups and you can use those eq settings for the pickups). So you could profile a PAF and an emg 81 and use either tone (not on the fly afaik).

 

[marcwormjim]

I get that everyone's talking hexaphonic processing, but monophonic EQ-matching is what've got as far as plugins.



https://www.facebook.com/positivegr...580448793626/1138284369523225/?type=3&theater

 

[odibrom]

About fishman's pickups, these are PRINTED in PCB platforms, meaning that all those turns are printed in PCBs that are then stacked in several layers, therefore making the coils wounds. The magnets are still necessary. These are basically the same old type of pickup, just made with today's tech. Because there are layers of "coils", The guys at Fishman can tweak a pickup's tone experimenting with removing some layers here or there, according to the artist's will and, therefore, squeeze several different tones out of one pickup.

Basically, they are making coil taps (removing part of the coil wound off the circuit) and coil splits at the same pickup to achieve all those tones. This is my understanding of how they work, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I still like the possibilities that an old school humbucker bring to the table and its versatility on not depending on batteries to deliver cool tones... but then, I have piezos on all my guitars (except 1)...

 

[purpledc]

Anyone know how the usual amp sims gets past copyeng amp sounds without paying money to the original brands?

The tone of an amp is not considered IP. With amps the intellectual property is in the form of trademarks and patents. This will protect the looks of a given amplifier as well as any proprietary circuitry that are unique to the amp. The sound? Simply not able to be protected as far as IP goes.

Now there have been a few nonsensical ideas proposed by some who have questioned whether things like the kemper profiler are ethical or not. Essentially questioning whether or not its morally or ethically responsible to make a product like that. I simply feel that argument is made by only two groups of people. The people who have a vested interest in tube amps, and those who have a large tube amp collection and feel threatened by a product like the kemper.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

The tone of an amp is not considered IP. With amps the intellectual property is in the form of trademarks and patents. This will protect the looks of a given amplifier as well as any proprietary circuitry that are unique to the amp. The sound? Simply not able to be protected as far as IP goes.

Now there have been a few nonsensical ideas proposed by some who have questioned whether things like the kemper profiler are ethical or not. Essentially questioning whether or not its morally or ethically responsible to make a product like that. I simply feel that argument is made by only two groups of people. The people who have a vested interest in tube amps, and those who have a large tube amp collection and feel threatened by a product like the kemper.

yeah the guys that I've seen get angry about profiling amps are usually small boutique amp builders like KSR, fortin, etc. Some of them claim that the profiler directly impacts their livelihood and that if you want the tone of the amp you should buy their 4000$ modified marshall instead of downloading a 20$ profile of it.

 

[mnemonic]

I guess the same argument could be made for many of these small amp builders that they're directly impacting the livelihood of Marshall or Fender, as most of those guys get their starts nodding those amps, and their own amps tend to be straight rips of Marshall or Fender circuits, with some modifications made.

To be more on topic, you might be better off getting some fairly neutral pickups like the BK Impulse or something, and then putting an eq or two and compressor in front of the amp. If you're going as deep as modeling pickups, you're probably already modeling amps with an axe fx or kemper, so adding those pre-effects shouldn't be so hard.

You're not gonna be able to do anything about the resonant peaks of the pickup or clarity (or lack thereof), just eq and general dynamics.

 

[prlgmnr]

Now there have been a few nonsensical ideas proposed by some who have questioned whether things like the kemper profiler are ethical or not. Essentially questioning whether or not its morally or ethically responsible to make a product like that. I simply feel that argument is made by only two groups of people. The people who have a vested interest in tube amps, and those who have a large tube amp collection and feel threatened by a product like the kemper.

Unlike the completely neutral, vested-interest free view of people who are trying to sell you a profiling amp.

 

[Winspear]

Got the interface for my Cycfi pickups arriving next week !
My long term goal is to have an impulse loader pedal packed with impulses (created by deconvolving flat Cycfi against other pickups just like cab impulses vs white noise) of other pickups. Eventually finding a way to integrate that into the guitar with a user friendly selection interface.

I didn't mention these pickups also have the option of single string processing on a multipin output. That gives you access to fun like single string fx, panning, EQ, amp-per-string setups (INSANE clarity), if that's an area of interest..Plus access to existing MIDI conversion systems using something like the Graphtech Hexpander. They also have built in support for MIDI control knobs on the guitar to map to any parameter you'd like. Sustainer in development too.

Join the facebook group, Joel is a madman , very great community, Cycfi is really the forefront of pickup technology

 

[Winspear]

Worth mentioning Joel @ Cycfi already has prototyped software down too. It's not released yet but it accurate models pickup positions and wirings and I know he's played with modelling with impulses before too. Would not be surprised if the final software has tone switching capabilities or could load impulses of pickups. Regardless, you can do it in any software impulse loader/Axefx etc provided you own a Cycfi and another pickup to compare to make the impulses (I'd suggesting doing so with an eBow to remove variables). So it's already very easily achievable to control with patches and MIDI etc. A hifi pickup like the Qtuner or even Lace would be a good contender but the Cycfi is extremely more neutral still. It could be neat to have the control and impulses built into the guitar, though.

 

[purpledc]

Unlike the completely neutral, vested-interest free view of people who are trying to sell you a profiling amp.

What is your point? Besides reinforcing mine? Anyone with something to sell is likely going to be influenced by that vested interest and what benefits them the most. I have no delusions about the motives of anyone selling something. Whether I personally bought it or not.

 

[purpledc]

yeah the guys that I've seen get angry about profiling amps are usually small boutique amp builders like KSR, fortin, etc. Some of them claim that the profiler directly impacts their livelihood and that if you want the tone of the amp you should buy their 4000$ modified marshall instead of downloading a 20$ profile of it.

I think that is ridiculous. But taking blame has always been the downfall of many. Some would rather blame others than roll with the changes. IMHO they are looking at untapped potential supplemental income as the enemy. To me those companies would rather implode rather than look at something differently and then do some things differently.

 

[mnemonic]

Even Celestion is selling IR's now.