Does it look like the ERG is tending to lean towards 8s?

[Atomic Kemper]

I noticed the 9 and 10 or more string ERGs are significantly less popular than the 8 (and 6 baritone or 7 string depending on the model ).

I want to know your opinion on whether the ERG world is leveling out and leaning heavily towards 8 strings as the usual/common, and what you think the future of 9 strings are, and also 10 {*plus }strings

Merry Xmas too

 

[TechDeathWannabe]

8 does seem to be the norm, but my curious nature leaves me wanting to try a 9 or a 10.

But..
They're expensive. At least for a guy who's wanting to save money and move out, but with no monetary benefits from music.
I'd love to try a touch-style guitar, but, well, yeah, Krappy is my cheapest option, and it's still more than I'm willing to experiment with right now. If I were a better guitarist, and didn't suck onstage, maybe I'd try gigging and then try 9+ strings. But for me, 8 is "enough".



For now.

As to the future.. Err... *horrible pun incoming*
The Future That Await(s) E(RG)

Merry Christmas to you as well

 

[Winspear]

Well 9's weren't really easily available until very recently. There will be those that try them out of curiosity and find they aren't for them, though some will. There will be those who had them before/always wanted one who will keep at it. As always though the more strings the less common , they aren't going to become the norm, just like 8s

 

[Explorer]

When I joined the site, 8-strings weren't available as a regular production item. Most of the ERG topics were about personal experimentation, including using active bass rail pickups in place of 8-string pickups which didn't exist.

It took several members working to get Rondo to start making runs, and that business grew. Ibanez, Schecter and others started making a few instruments here and there, but all of that growth has taken more than 6 years.

There's a reason the site isn't called "EightString.org".

At this point, we're barely into 9-strings being available, even though your own limited experience might make it seem like they've been around sufficiently to build just as much of a user base.

----

For my own use, I've been slowly moving towards getting a 9-string tuned BEADGCFAD.

That's as part of a journey where I've tried various tunings on six- and 8-string. I originally started playing FCGADE full fifths on six-string, then adopted a special alloy string allowing me to use a high B4 for CGDAEB, then full fifths on 8-string (Bb0 F1 C2 G2 D3 A3 E4 B4 at 25.5" and Ab0 Eb1 Bb1 F2 C3 G3 D4 A4 at 28.625"), then finally moving to EADGCFAD to really exploit the chordal advantage of standard tuning's intervals, while still retaining CGDAEB on the double-strung mandophone for acoustic work.

Since I've been more mired in music work and composition using acoustic instruments over the past year, I haven't had a lot of pressure to expand the funk bass range downwards, but I'm sure it will be on my radar sometime in the next two years....

 

[Hollowway]

I'd agree that 8 strings are sort of the go-to ERG when it comes to straight frets. 9 strings involve too much sacrifice if we're talking straight frets. But when the big companies start doing 27-30" 9 strings, or when Kiesel/Carvin invents it lol then I think we'll start seeing more of those. But it's splitting hairs. To 99.9% of the guitar players out there, 7s, 8s, and 9s are all weird instruments. So if the 8 seems more prevalent than the 9, it basically means that of the 17 ERG players in the world, 11 of them use 8 strings.

But, 8 is a really nice spot. Most of my guitars are 8s, and I currently only have one 9 and one 10. So I still haven't found the magic solution to going way lower. I suspect a lot of it has to do with string technology, and how we think about tension for lower pitches. I'm ordering some significantly fatter Kaliums for my 9th and 10th strings to see if I can get the same feeling I have on my 8th.

 

[Explorer]

I'm now convinced that "hollow way" is a reference to you having built hidey holes all over your house to hide your acquisitions from your wife.... *laugh*

 

[A-Branger]

I noticed the 9 and 10 or more string ERGs are significantly less popular than the 8 (and 6 baritone or 7 string depending on the model ).

I want to know your opinion on whether the ERG world is leveling out and leaning heavily towards 8 strings as the usual/common, and what you think the future of 9 strings are, and also 10 {*plus }strings

Merry Xmas too

I would say because there are bass players?? lol

as "standard" tunings, an 8 string guitar goes into the territory of a standard 4 string bass, a 9 string would then jump into a 5 string bass, and a 10 string would go into an ocatve lower than a normal 4 string bass.

There is so many frequencies you can go lower before hitting the ceiling of what its actually audible and pleasant.

I would see it more of a compromise. What do you want to do, plan an 8 string with your buddy playing his bass with you?, or do you want to be a "one man band" and play an 10 string. OR get a double neck instrument with bass and guitar?, or an 7 string bass tunned higuer instead of lower?

IMO theres no much need for such a low range guitar, there is not really much that can be played on a 9 or 10 string guitar that it can not be done with a guitar+bass approach in which opens the door for far more musicality as you arent limited by one person hands skills. This as a "traditional" rock and metal playing, now if you are going for the tapping, glitch tapping, champan stick, double hand piano player, then thats a different story and having such a big range of strings would actually be beneficial to you and your music approach. But again we are on a "metal" driven forum,

any riff played on a 9 string can be done on a 7 string with a octave lower bass and sound "low" and "metal", same can be said for 10 string vs 8+bass. Or if you really really want your song riffs to be done in such a low octave, then grab a 5 string bass and play it with a nice distortion and a good EQ, it would do the same job, if not better

 

[Nag]

Look at the famius players. Most guitarists who are notorious ERG players use 8 string guitars, not 9 or more. So that's what people will be inspired by.

I'd say 8-string guitars are easier to play and probably to make interesting, so that's why more people play them. Most people play 6 and sometimes 7 string guitars, so 9/10/11 string guitars are kind of a stretch in comparison. 8 strings looks more like the "logical next step". Never forget how slow the guitar world is in accepting new things

 

[Halowords]

Are 8's the norm, or becoming that? That seems to be the case, especially around here, and for reasons touted. I recently got a nine string and, while I can see the 8th and 9th strings getting a bit less necessary for rhythm & lead...I am glad I chose a 9.

I would challenge this notion a bit:

I would see it more of a compromise. What do you want to do, plan an 8 string with your buddy playing his bass with you?, or do you want to be a "one man band" and play an 10 string. OR get a double neck instrument with bass and guitar?, or an 7 string bass tunned higuer instead of lower?

IMO theres no much need for such a low range guitar, there is not really much that can be played on a 9 or 10 string guitar that it can not be done with a guitar+bass approach in which opens the door for far more musicality as you arent limited by one person hands skills.

I would agree with that to an extent. And yet, my prog rock and personal biases will become very apparent here, there are some notable (and I think great) exceptions to that. Tony Levin and Trey Gunn have shown how a Chapman Stick and Warr guitar can fit into a band situation, admittedly doing bass lines, but it is still a great example of a diverse type of instrument. Isis, Neurosis, and Godflesh have played some pretty low tunings, and a seven, eight, or nine allows you to play similarly low tunings, keep the high end, and also have more notes available to you without moving up the neck so much. And I'm a big fan of The Cure, and the use of a Bass VI as a guitar makes an eight-string make a lot of sense. A nine allowed both a bit more range (some of which I will perhaps not use as much, but so be it), and the option of playing in Bass VI range (again, as a guitar setup) just higher up the neck if I want. And then there is Doom Metal or Stoner Metal stuff, which I am not as much into but like.

So a nine-string lets me tune to BEADGCFAD or C#F#BEADGBE (or whatever), and play things on the lower strings for more atmospheric stuff, or to play around with funky bass stuff, and still have the ability to play lead. I quite like it, and could have a great time with a bass player and another guitarist or drummer without stepping on anybody's toes. Is it entirely necessary? Probably not. I suspect I will get an urge to pick up my G&L ASAT Bluesboy, almost as traditional a style six-string guitar as you can imagine, and have rarely felt very limited on that wonderful guitar. Do I like having that spread, both in total range across the octaves and freedom to play more range at any given fret? I am still early into this affair, but so far I love it! So would I have been just as happy on an eight? Probably pretty close. Am I happy that I took a leap of faith and chose a nine-string (with a 27" to 30" fan)? Absolutely!

-Cheers

 

[TylerE]

8 feels right to me. Useful extended range, anything else just seems like to much of a trade off in terms of both playability AND reasonable scale lengths.

 

[Bearitone]

8 feels right to me. Useful extended range, anything else just seems like to much of a trade off in terms of both playability AND reasonable scale lengths.

Boom. This right here.
9 strings and the board gets too fat and anything longer than 30" scale becomes too much of a stretch on the lower frets to be comfortable. Some people would even say 30" is too much but, to me its okay.

I feel like for almost everything out right now an 8 string, tuned to whatever you want, will suit your needs.

The only band I can think of that uses both the extreme highs and lows of a 9 string is Glass Cloud. And they dont really use the full range. Its just either chugs and rhythm on the low notes or piercing, dissonant, high note tapping and sweeps

EDIT: Honestly though, I think in a decade or so we'll see 9 and 10 string guitars on the rise. Some guy out there is going to want the full frequency spectrum on his hands when he plays guitar and we'll see a 12 string guitar that can play anything from 20hz to 16khz

 

[Hollowway]

I think the next evolution we'll see is larger fans. Pretty much everyone that plays a fan says they barely notice it. And since most of us are willing to spend the time to adapt to something new, I would think that more extreme fans than we're used to (i.e. greater than 3") will start coming into use. When that happens a lot more 9s and 10s will show up, because the compromises will be less severe. But, it's all relative. It will still be a tremendously small niche market. Which is totally fine by me. Who the hell wants to be like everyone else?

 

[ThePIGI King]

I also think it's due to the cost of getting the instruments. 9 strings aren't nearly as cheap as 8 strings. You can get a used RG8 or Omen 8 for less than $300 all day long. But a 9? I've never even seen a 9 in any of the guitar stores I've gone to as of late, nor have I seen many used ones pop up online. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough...

 

[Halowords]

Boom. This right here.
9 strings and the board gets too fat and anything longer than 30" scale becomes too much of a stretch on the lower frets to be comfortable.

I disagree. I was a bit concerned with that, but after a very short period of time on it (pretty much immediately) the nine string fretboard and neck feel fine. I will say barring on the first fret or two is a bit of an adjustment due to the fan (it's a 27"-30" fan), and if I had to bar across all nine strings my finger is not long enough to do that very well, but the stretch due to the longer distance between frets is negligible. If I were doing funky Jazz chords, maybe, but with nine strings, I can just move up the neck. And I probably have pretty normal, average-sized hands.

I think the next evolution we'll see is larger fans. Pretty much everyone that plays a fan says they barely notice it. And since most of us are willing to spend the time to adapt to something new, I would think that more extreme fans than we're used to (i.e. greater than 3") will start coming into use.

I think that may happen. In fact, doesn't the Charlie Hunter 8-string model from Novax have a 24" or 25" to 28.75" scale over 22 frets? So that would stand as an example of a longer scale fan. However I will admit there seems to be a point of diminishing returns for me. My guitar's 3" fan spread across nine strings is a bit extreme at the first fret or two. Beyond that, I can essentially forget it has a fan. The question for me is, how much beyond that can I play the thing comfortably and as fluidly as I do now?

Could I handle a larger fan? Sure. Would I find it exceptionally comfortable or pragmatic? Maybe, maybe not. It would depend how big the fan was and how I used it. For playing rhythm and chords low on the neck (the first couple frets), too much of an angle would be perhaps a bit too prohibitive. But a somewhat larger fan, and (here might be the key) positioned so the place the angles were more extreme allowed for more natural open or first/second-string barre chords while allowing the player to flow naturally as they play up the neck, I think most could and probably would adjust to that just fine. For playing leads, scales, melodies, double stops, I would see no problems.

So in short I pretty much agree with you. With the right strings (which, that reminds me, I need to figure that situation out and order them), I think my 27" to 30" multiscale nine-string will work great for BEADGCFAD (or C#F#BEADGBE as it is presently) to cover the range of a six-string bass (or within one step) through a standard six-string guitar. That's not bad, even with less-than-optimal strings that it has now, it sounds nice tonally, the playability is really good, and the overall dimensions of it feel pretty right on to me. I would welcome a longer scale, although to what extent I would have to play with to find out. Too much and it might be a bit too much of a compromise ergonomically, but there does seem to be room for that sweet spot where it is as large a fan as we can play where it feels right before it goes off into the land where only Plastic Man could play it.

-Cheers

 

[Konfyouzd]

Charlie Hunter's guitar is significantly different from what the average ERG player plays fanned or not. Apples to oranges.

 

[Halowords]

Charlie Hunter's guitar is significantly different from what the average metal ERG player plays. Apples to oranges.

I'm not your average metal ERG player.

Point taken though. I merely brought it up because, well for one I like Jazz (and Metal and Prog and all sorts of stuff), but for another just to show that sort of larger fan can be playable. Will that at all translate to the average Metal ERG crowd, or to the playing style of anybody NOT named Charlie Hunter? Hard to say.

-Cheers

 

[Explorer]

Since people have been talking about one wouldn't really need the range which is in the range of another instrument...

I think that such thoughts only take into account the musical situations such posters are familiar with. That's understandable, but it's a bad idea to generalize from a small section of the vast musical spectrum.

It's like topics here on SS.org wherein posters have argued that because they always use high gain distortion, there is no way anyone else anywhere could possibly have use for a tone knob which comes stock. "If only manufacturers realized that my narrow experience and lack of imagination were enough to put those same limitations upon other potential purchasers, and get rid of that knob!" *laugh*

Yes, I get that not everyone uses the full range on a piano, or even a violin/fiddle. Even bluegrass players often joke about how there is no "money"/profit in playing above the first five frets, even though there are many players in other styles who make brilliant use of even the first twelve, if not higher.

Those arguing that 8 seems like the correct amount are making the same argument many have heard in guitar center about 6 being right, and ERG players needing to jettison the extra nonsense strings.

I'm not saying that such arguments are wrong for any particular individual, but that also means others have different arguments for themselves, and they might choose higher limits, or even reject limits altogether.

 

[A-Branger]

In my case I only talking about the "traditional" way to play (and make music) in a rock/metal genre. Most of the stuff I have heard in an 8 string guitar or 9s can be easily played if you separate what the "one man band" guy is doing into a guitar+bass, and in that situation there would be more stuff to be added as you have now two people instead the limitations of one. So for me its more beneficial. Thing is there is always those who think a "bass" should be the instrument who only plays root notes with the kickdrum and never see the full range that instrument can do.

For other styles of music, playing approaches, new genres/styles. yes, a 8-10 string instrument can be awesome. But we still are in a baby era with those, most of music is still the "traditional" stuff. So until music really changes and new styles and sub-genres develop, there wont be much need for that amount of strings yet. We all here wont be drooling for an 7-8 strings and ERG if it wasnt for modern metals sub-genres like djent to give one example.

The way I see it, the future for 9-10 string guitars would depend on the "popularity" of the music is slowly being develop right now, and the one that it will be develop in the future. A music that would require you to get one guitar and/or develop a playing technique different enough, and once you jump into it, you would see the real "need" for it, and that would then open the door for you to create newer styes and keep the ball rolling.

But for "traditional" playing/music, I would see a quick hype for these guitars in the future, only to die and be back again inot what we have today or even in the past. And then up again. More like a roller coaster


The only thing I didnt mention before is that, although I do not really see the need for such a range in one guitar and that 2-3 band memeber can do the same/better job, is that having this guitar can actually be better for you in order to make music. By having such a big range, it may open the doors for you to create music that otherwise you would be able to create using your 6 string guitar, even if that music is a "easy" guitar+bass song, its still something that it came to you thanks to a 9 string. Same way I can create music different if I grab my bass or my guitar or a piano, these 9-10 string guitars can do the same for you.

 

[Explorer]

@A-Branger- Yes, one can definitely do more with two musicians than one.

And, those two musicians can do more varied material if each has access to more range/instrumentation.

I used to be in a duo with a partner who had an instrument with the same large range as mine (not ERG). We each normally took on at least two voices, and made sure those voices didn't conflict.

I've also been in groups where people doubled on more than one instrument, supporting your point that two controlling minds are capable of more than one person alone.

Looking at your point about getting additional people: Let's say I'm playing in the pit of a small theater production. My ERG allows me, with an eBow and a few pedals, to cover a huge range of notes and timbres. That allows me and two other people to cover many orchestral idioms.

Your suggestion of getting a guitar *and* a bass, from your personal experience, not only reduces the amount of pay for the group, but also adds complication for no reason. The slow-swelling string section parts which I can play in wide voicings with perfect timing suddenly become a matter of two people having to lock onto the same cues.

That's just one example of a three-person situation suddenly needing a fourth member.

Again, I don't blame you for having a limited viewpoint, or for not being able to imagine different situations in which you haven't found yourself.

Just for the record, my metal playing is limited only to six-string. I have never played such on ERG.

 

[A-Branger]

yeah I know what you are saying, and yes, there are different points I havent really though much about it. Like timing and the need to add more people.

My point was jsut for general playing/recording, like why you have to force yourself to hit the bass note on your chords structure/progression when you can have a bass player doing a bass line around those, allowing yourself to concentrate on your arpeggios so you can play them easily, add more voicing and find a better transition to the next chord.

But again, it was the limitations on having only YOU to play that on your 9-10 string the reason on the why you came up with that chord/melody/song. If you had a guitar+bass approach at the time to composing, you may had come up with a different song.

So thats why I say they can be great tools to compose if you know how to use them.

Examples like you say for small teather productions with some effects can help you cover the whole range without having you to change instruments or adding another person, thats great!. That its actually a situation where these guitars can fit perfectly, and for the pay and timing on two ppl hitting the notes, thats another topic. Im not talking about how poor we all are in this industry LOL and the other shouldnt be an issue if everyone practice. But I do see your point.

its still a small scenario, not big enough to make this guitars "popular" as the title of the topic says.

a 8-10 string can be also a great great tool for like a duo, not even "metal", more for like soft music/singer-songwriter, one guy can have his acoustic guitar playing his over-used 4 chords (just joking) and the other can be a mix of another chords strung guitar, or bass lines depending of what the song would require. After writing this, I think having a 8-10 string guitar should be the perfect scenario for them. And that could help to make these guitars more popular, but for now the stereotype for an 8 string is to play "metal" and thats what they are marketed for. I bet you a couple of kids on bars would start using an 8 string+acoustic for their duo bands and these guitar would boom in popularity

I do would like to see in the future more bands like Josh Martin's Like I said, these guitars still are on the baby stages, the more ppl find a "real" use for them, the quicker others can jump into them and make them more popular and make the transition eassier. Like someone else mentioned here, the jump its a bit scary, and the ergonomics of it gets pretty wide.

for me I find it "scary" to play an 8 string. I have grab one on a store to try, and Im left like "duuhhh...uuhhhgg.... what now agin" lol thats because I dont know what to do or how to start, even that I play bass as my main instrument and guitar a little it should be "easy" for me to pick an 8, but nop, for me seems like a whole different animal. And the only things I might "play" are things that are popular to me for 8 strings (which is Mesugha kinda stuff, or other metal riffs but in the 8th string). So for me a 9 or 10 its even way way more scary to pick lol.

aslo you can say I got used to play my bass and my guitar. Im probably stuck with my mentality of my bass is my bass and not a guitar. Reason why I do not want either a 6 or 7 string bass, I do not see the "need" for me. And thats the thing I always though of these instruments 8-10 strings, there are a different beast that requires a "new" or different approach, rather than a "guitar" one. Another reason why they wont be too popular yet, first we need "pioneers" to show the way, so other can take where they left off and keep going.