Floyd Rose question -- returning flat or sharp

[SalsaWood]

When dialing in floating bridges I always dive the bar and let it return to neutral to set my zero that way, and I don't put the guitar on a tech bench when tuning the bridge at all either. The more properly dialed in/balanced your bridge is the less this happens and more acute the angle of neutral, or knife edges could be worn out but that's pretty uncommon from proper use even on the 1000s.

IME it's very difficult to get a guitar that will unfailingly return to within more than 3 cents or so when really giving the bar hell. If that's what you are hunting it's a pipe dream. Tilting the guitar can put the bridge off by up to ~6-12 cents in some cases as well. Might not explain your problem, but FWIW.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

So I added some chapstick to the knife edges and the cone of the posts (hopefully makes sense) for now. It seems to return to pitch better. What I noticed was that the posts had some lines (3 or 4) and this is likely what the bridge is catching on.

I'm sure at some point, once I'm more well versed and better acquainted with the Floyd Rose, I'll look at upgrading to an original or Schaller.

 

[SalsaWood]

You can just change out the posts, the slight modern differences between the 1k/Special/Original are basically moot.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

You can just change out the posts, the slight modern differences between the 1k/Special/Original are basically moot.

I may do that if it's an issue that gets worse. I might eventually upgrade to an OFR once I get the hang of it with the 1000.

 

[lost_horizon]

No I repeat no Floyd Rose is good without a stabiliser! If Steve Vai can't do it, neither can you!

Everyone of my trem guitars has a stabiliser of some sort.

Check for play in the posts, use some plumbers tape if play is present.

There is really nothing 'different' about an OFR vs a 1000 series and you will have the same issues. The OFR isn't a magic pill any more than a Schaller Lockmeister or a Gotoh GE-1996T.

Unless there is wear, or something is moving or hollow, no difference between different trems.

I think the design of the Vega trem which is superior to most floyds in design and action with a small block sort of blows things most trem wives tales out of the water.

Most of my trems have different stabilisers but if they all had the same one probably would perform very similar.

My Parker Nitefly has a built in trem stopper and that is one of the best performing I have ever used. Without it it would just be as crappy as any other trem.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

No I repeat no Floyd Rose is good without a stabiliser! If Steve Vai can't do it, neither can you!

Everyone of my trem guitars has a stabiliser of some sort.

Check for play in the posts, use some plumbers tape if play is present.

There is really nothing 'different' about an OFR vs a 1000 series and you will have the same issues. The OFR isn't a magic pill any more than a Schaller Lockmeister or a Gotoh GE-1996T.

Unless there is wear, or something is moving or hollow, no difference between different trems.

I think the design of the Vega trem which is superior to most floyds in design and action with a small block sort of blows things most trem wives tales out of the water.

Most of my trems have different stabilisers but if they all had the same one probably would perform very similar.

My Parker Nitefly has a built in trem stopper and that is one of the best performing I have ever used. Without it it would just be as crappy as any other trem.

I'm getting two Tremol-Nos in. Apparently they are iffy. We'll see. If I don't care for them, I'll likely try something else. I mainly want it for using the EVH D-Tuna.

By "play," you mean the post rocking back and forth somewhat, correct?

The OFR is supposed to be made with "better quality" steel. Supposedly.

Which trem stabilizer or stopper do you prefer since you seem to have a lot of experience?

Being able to block it for dive only would be nice, but I'd also like to pull up some as well, though it isn't mission critical. Diving only operation is most important. That said, if the big blocks, EVH D-Tunas, and Tremol-Nos I bought suck, then oh well. It was an experiment/gamble trying stuff that is meant to be for the fun of it. Sort if like buying two guitars with Floyd Rose bridges in the first place. For probably 15 years, I had FR phobia because of a licensed Floyd Rose I had years ago.

 

[lost_horizon]

I'm getting two Tremol-Nos in. Apparently they are iffy. We'll see. If I don't care for them, I'll likely try something else. I mainly want it for using the EVH D-Tuna.

WIth the right setup and stable trem you can have a floating D-Tuna, but yeah simplest way is down only. You still need the right tension to bring it back. I had two EVH Axis and they both worked best with 4 springs.

By "play," you mean the post rocking back and forth somewhat, correct?

yeah, take the trem off and see what it is like.

The OFR is supposed to be made with "better quality" steel. Supposedly.

How much better, I would say it would be 15% stronger, steels are different in the single digit %. The benefit is also in that range.

Which trem stabilizer or stopper do you prefer since you seem to have a lot of experience?

Tremmory>WD Music>Goeldo Backbox>Apollo Music Parts

Tremmory is greatest for feel and function, WD Music gets 90% of the feel and function and can be down only, Goeldo backbox has forward and back functionality and is lockable down only but the play in the mechanism isn't as good as having a solid object, Apollo music parts is the same design as a goeldo backbox just more mass and made of single piece of brass, it has it's problem with design with things moving about and falling off.

Never used a tremsetter but you have to modify your guitar alot to use it.

Being able to block it for dive only would be nice, but I'd also like to pull up some as well, though it isn't mission critical. Diving only operation is most important. That said, if the big blocks, EVH D-Tunas, and Tremol-Nos I bought suck, then oh well. It was an experiment/gamble trying stuff that is meant to be for the fun of it. Sort if like buying two guitars with Floyd Rose bridges in the first place. For probably 15 years, I had FR phobia because of a licensed Floyd Rose I had years ago.

Steve Vai uses two backbox style ones at once for up and down motion. I think it is a better way but would run to almost $100.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

There is one that seems like two backbox style trem stabilizers. I think I like the Apollo Music one. I'd just need to fin some way to add some material to the tip so it doesn't buzz against the sustain block. My concern with the others is that they won't stabilize it enough during string changes and using an EVH D-Tuna.

 

[Hollowway]

When dialing in floating bridges I always dive the bar and let it return to neutral to set my zero that way, and I don't put the guitar on a tech bench when tuning the bridge at all either. The more properly dialed in/balanced your bridge is the less this happens and more acute the angle of neutral, or knife edges could be worn out but that's pretty uncommon from proper use even on the 1000s.

IME it's very difficult to get a guitar that will unfailingly return to within more than 3 cents or so when really giving the bar hell. If that's what you are hunting it's a pipe dream. Tilting the guitar can put the bridge off by up to ~6-12 cents in some cases as well. Might not explain your problem, but FWIW.

I set it up by diving first, too. And, I think it’s generally accepted that it should return to pitch after diving, but that pulling up will almost always return sharp. @Ibanez Rules Rich was the one that taught me that (via his site) if I remember correctly.

 

[torchlord]

WIth the right setup and stable trem you can have a floating D-Tuna, but yeah simplest way is down only. You still need the right tension to bring it back. I had two EVH Axis and they both worked best with 4 springs.

yeah, take the trem off and see what it is like.

How much better, I would say it would be 15% stronger, steels are different in the single digit %. The benefit is also in that range.

Tremmory>WD Music>Goeldo Backbox>Apollo Music Parts

Tremmory is greatest for feel and function, WD Music gets 90% of the feel and function and can be down only, Goeldo backbox has forward and back functionality and is lockable down only but the play in the mechanism isn't as good as having a solid object, Apollo music parts is the same design as a gold backbox just more mass and made of a single piece of brass, it has its problem with design with things moving about and falling off.

Never used a tremsetter but you have to modify your guitar a lot to use it.

Steve Vai uses two backbox-style ones at once for up-and-down motion. I think it is a better way but would run to almost $100.

My vote goes to the Tremmory design. The best thing about it is that it doesn't need to be screwed into the guitar and you can use them with the Tremolo-no in a three-spring set-up. I had to get the higher-tension purple spring to down-tune a whole step though when using both.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

My vote goes to the Tremmory design. The best thing about it is that it doesn't need to be screwed into the guitar and you can use them with the Tremolo-no in a three-spring set-up. I had to get the higher-tension purple spring to down-tune a whole step though when using both.

Wait, you used the tremmory AND a Tremol-No? Crazy!

 

[JediMasterThrash]

Check your butterfly action. Pluck the vibrato bar both up and down and see if you get good bufferfly flutter with sustain. If not then there's wear on the edge/posts. And that's unusually with a "real" floyd unless it was mistreated.

Any real floyd with a good install should return to tune no matter how much you whail on it (within a few cents, enough you shouldn't notice or probably even see on a digital tuner).

Check the nut, could be pulling string through the nut on when pulling up. Or bad strings that are staying stretched after you stretch them.

Try putting oil on the post/knife connection if it's just a little rough.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

I'd did some tightening of the nut, added some chapstick, adjusted the headstock bar, etc, and gave it a few dives and raises. It seemed to react more similar to what you said. I'm still contemplating a couple Gotoh GE1996T bridges and some new posts, though.

Anyone have tips on adding oil, chapstick, etc to the bridge and post without removing it? How often should this be done?

 

[LunatiqueRob]

Tuning stability is one of my pet peeves and I have returned multiple guitars in the past because no amount of work made them better (using every trick I could find on the Internet, which includes everything already mentioned in this thread and more). After owning 47 guitars and 18 basses, here are my thoughts.

-Almost all guitars will have slight to drastic drift from 0 when you use the whammy bar, and the bigger the movement, the more it'll drift; however, there will be that rare guitar that just stays in tune and returns to 0 (or so close that no one will ever hear that +/- 1 cent drift), but from my experience, that is not the norm--that is the exception.

-One common thing people do to get a guitar back in tune after using the whammy bar or bending, is to give the bar a little push to "reset" the springs. Just a little smack with your palm or push with your fingers should do the trick. This is not ideal because you'd need to do it while in the middle of playing and there might not be time to do it if playing something that's very busy without enough resting beats.

-Apparently, whether your guitar is warmed up can affect the tuning. If you just picked up the guitar and test the tuning and it seemed fine, then once you play for about 30 minutes or so and your body/hands has warmed up the guitar and strings some, it'll change the tuning and you'd have to retune it.

-Always tune with the guitar in the same position as when you're playing it. Don't lay it down on to table to tune because gravity will be pulling in the wrong direction on the guitar and its parts.

-Sometimes lubing the nut slots is not enough. You have to file them with a nut file set to get rid of any possible roughness that's catching the strings. But be careful to not take off the area that keeps the string at its proper height. I file the "walls" to the sides and at the bottom edge front and back just enough to smooth them a little, and then I apply lube.

-I also lube all string contact points like the saddles, string trees (if there are any), knife edges.

With all that said, I want to mention that I did eventually get an Evertune guitar and put a Virtual Jeff on it, which solves all the problems with tremolo systems. The EVertune will always stay in tune and the Virtual Jeff will never go out of tune, plus it's got other very useful features like virtual capo, pitch shifting, etc. I set the Evertune between zone 2 and 3 so I can still bend strings.

I know the Evertune + Virtual Jeff route might not appeal to everyone, but it is an option to consider that I have never seen anyone else try before.

 

[Robslalaina]

I know the Evertune + Virtual Jeff route might not appeal to everyone, but it is an option to consider that I have never seen anyone else try before.

How do you deal with the whammy bar being so short though? I considered going that route for an always ready recording guitar but it seemed I'd have to attach the Vjeff at a bit of distance from the end of the bridge to make tuning possible with the key (or intonation adjustment on other types of bridges), which would then put the bar a bit too far back from my picking hand. Curious to see your setup!

 

[Crungy]

@LunatiqueRob goddamn, an evertune/Virtual Jeff combo is brilliant. Not exactly cheap but if you get along with both things that has to be the most fool proof way to stay in tune.

 

[LunatiqueRob]

How do you deal with the whammy bar being so short though? I considered going that route for an always ready recording guitar but it seemed I'd have to attach the Vjeff at a bit of distance from the end of the bridge to make tuning possible with the key (or intonation adjustment on other types of bridges), which would then put the bar a bit too far back from my picking hand. Curious to see your setup!

VJ allows you to have some flexibility in the orientation since the joint has 2-axes, so I angled mine like this:



This is how it looks from my POV when playing:

The VJ is very light touch and not stiff at all, so I can easily have complete control with my ring/pinky fingers when picking just below the neck pickup. I usually pick at the middle or between middle ane neck pickup since that's where my palm mute position is at naturally.

The VJ can be easily removed from the mount, so when you don't want it on the guitar, just slide it off and play it like a normal hardtail:

Some people might not like how it looks with just the mount, and in that case, just leave the VJ on even when not using it and it'll look better.

 

[torchlord]

Wait, you used the tremmory AND a Tremol-No? Crazy!

Yeah, I had the Tremolo-No in with the Tremsettara which is the same design as the Tremmory without the thumb screw, that I got from some Russian guy in Russia before finding out about the Tremmory for about 60 dollars cheaper (at the time) and I bought 3 of them for about 128 dollars. It was a challenge conversing with him through email since his English wasn't that great. I'm not sure if the guy makes the Tremmory or not but it was slightly more crude looking in design than the Tremmory hence the reason why it likely cost much less.

 

[torchlord]

I'd did some tightening of the nut, added some chapstick, adjusted the headstock bar, etc, and gave it a few dives and raises. It seemed to react more similar to what you said. I'm still contemplating a couple Gotoh GE1996T bridges and some new posts, though.

Anyone have tips on adding oil, chapstick, etc to the bridge and post without removing it? How often should this be done?

If you are looking at the GE1996T, one feature that I think really sets itself apart from other bridges is the locking post. You can get the locking post-Gotah Design (not Gotah brand) and use them with other bridges. I bought some recently and installed them for my Floyd Special. I'm not yet sure how well they will help the stability because the guitars are still apart waiting for me to finish a fret jobs but I really like how solid they are with no play at all in the post. I can't imagine it wouldn't help.

Steel&Brass Bridge Studs Posts fit for Gotoh Floyd Rose Tremolos 510TS&GE1996T | eBay

These are upgraded studs made in Japan, used solid steel and brass materials better than original GOTOH studs. The Studs are made of Stainless steel and collars are made of solid brass. We promise we will find a more better solution.

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They are pretty cheap but you will wan't to get a knob and bushing puller to get out the old post anchor. Something like this.

https://www.amplifiedparts.com/products/knob-bushing-puller-easy-removal-guitar

One of the issues I had with putting the Gotah-like post anchor in was that it was longer than my original post and I had to make the hole a little deeper. I wound up using straight shank 4 flute HSS end milling cutter slot drill bits with a piece of copper tape to protect the original hole wrapped around it, then I had to just turn the bit by hand till I got to the depth I needed.

 

[High Plains Drifter]

I'd did some tightening of the nut, added some chapstick, adjusted the headstock bar, etc, and gave it a few dives and raises. It seemed to react more similar to what you said. I'm still contemplating a couple Gotoh GE1996T bridges and some new posts, though.

Anyone have tips on adding oil, chapstick, etc to the bridge and post without removing it? How often should this be done?

One thing I'd like to mention here is that whenever lubricating anything, you need to be mindful that with most any type of wet lube ( oil, silicone, certain wax-based lubricants, etc) that you can ( depending on the application) make matters worse if contaminants are able to infiltrate or contact the lubricated parts.

In certain applications, I'll only use a wet-lubricant if the location will not be exposed to dirt, dust, or other contaminants. In the case of something like a nut-slot, using chapstick is considered safe b/c the area is easy to inspect and clean if necessary and the wax isn't so viscous nor fluid for someone to have concerns about harboring contaminants in hidden recesses.

But in the case of trem posts where they contact a base-plate, I would avoid using any kind of wet lube where inspection and cleaning access will be next to impossible. And again, that grit, dirt, etc that gets trapped within the lubricant can cause additional wear-damage or other issues.

In situations like this, it could be acceptable to use a dry-lubricant like graphite although in the instance of reducing friction between a base-plate & trem posts, the benefit would be limited and short-lived at best... essentially ineffective as a long-term solution.