Fortin Natas or Solar Chug?

[Kosthrash]

Have you tried already recording through the Invective's usb audio out? I believe it has less interference issues, rather than through cab/mic/preamp way.
Regardless, i believe you 'll still have noise issues due to bad power cabling(?) even with a nice analog preamp pedal...

 

[ExMachina]

Do you have sound clips of these fizzy, boomy tube amps?

 

[Jon Pearson]

Yeeeeeeaaaaah so I'm thinking this is a case of either user error, or some VERY bad apartment power that no outboard gear will solve, or both. And I don't mean that to insult, but I'm simply stating with what you have, you should be able to pull the tones you want, and it's your personal experience against the bulk of anyone who has used these products.

Buying these pedals is not going to fix your problem, I can all but guarantee that. The Invective MH, while likely not the be-all-end-all of metal tones, is very much serviceable and ought to get where you need to go. The Revv, while not exactly my favorite amp, will easily get there with a suitable boost pedal. If you have noise, you need a gate, and there is no getting around it.

But also, if you absolutely will not consider the idea the above, buy the Chug.

 

[Kosthrash]

...and just to make this a trilemma, the Empress Heavy Menace pedal has also a gate & sounds heavier

Heavy Menace

HEAVY MENACE The Heavy Menace is the most versatile distortion pedal that Empress Effects has ever created. It’s an evolution of the original Heavy with new features and a compact enclosure. In addition to the original Heavy and Heavier modes, the Heavy Menace adds a new Lite(ish) mode...

empresseffects.com

 

[Shask]

It sounds to me like you need to sell the small EL84 20w tube amps and get a 100w tube amp with 6L6s. Those small EL84 tube amps are horrible for good deep chugs. You really need higher wattage with bigger tubes for that.

Either of these pedals would sound bigger into a bigger power section.

 

[ExMachina]

I just made this a few days ago. No wall wart required. Also, a vh140c clone has chugs for days.

 

[wakjob]

I'd go Chug myself... and you're not wrong on the Flextone amps. I love the Flextone II HD. Sleeper amp for sure. I know a semi-pro player that sold four SLO 100's and rack gear for two of those when they came out. He also has the original Flextone prototype amp. Looks like those old VOX Valvetronics heads.

So yeah, one vote for CHUG.

 

[nickgray]

G20 has extremely thick and loose low end, also muddy, also with excessive mids. It's got the honky/quacky mids even with the mids knob at 0.

Have you thought about sticking an EQ in the fx loop? Btw, I remember now trying G20 in a local shop and I also remember it being unpleasantly honky in the mids, so apparently it's a feature. Didn't like it at all.

With that in mind, have you considered a modeler? Cause it's pretty much a bog standard trick - find a model you like, stick an EQ after it and dial to your liking. If you're using IRs, you have a choice of IR on top of it all so that you have even more options.

 

[MatrixClaw]

I have an Eminence DV-77 and GA10-SC64, a Celestion G12H-75 Creamback, G12L, and the 2 Celestions in the Flextone, and the stock 12" in a Peavey ValveKing II 20 combo. The Invective sounds like trash thru all of them, with its own power amp or into the FX return of any of my other amps. It's muddy and tubby yet harsh and abrasive. It makes a bunch of hiss that sounds like a bad reverb. The bass is muddy. The mids are excessive. Have to put the treble to max to make it sound decent, but then it's getting harsh. I've tried a bunch of different preamp tubes and a new matched pair of Mesa EL84s. None of them made a significant difference.
The low end on the Flextone is so much more defined and thumpy, especially on a clean tone. It has so much more clarity and articulation without being harsh. And it's WAY less fizzy. Much less noise.

None of those are speakers I'd use by themselves with your tube amps, personally. The DV-77 is dark, I didn't care for it at all by itself but it mixes well with a V30-like speaker. The GA10-SC64 is 10" and is just going accentuate the rolled off low-end of the EL84 power section. The Creamback is great, but not something I'd use for metal by itself, either. The G12L has a decent following online but I've never tried one, from what I gather, it has a very small magnet and was in Marshall's budget line at the time. The Invective was voiced for a V30/G12H-75 combo. The Creamback rounds out the lower mid range and adds some smoothness, but it's the V30 that gives it the bite and low end definition.

The Invective MH was anything but muddy when I owned it. Easily the tightest amp I've ever played with the gate and boost engaged and very articulate. Maybe not as much as an EVH or a Soldano, but for the price, it easily outperformed everything in its class. Are you playing with an 8 string or something? The only way I can fathom it being muddy in the low end is if you're overloading the front end with bass. Yes, your Flextone probably has more bass, that's almost definitely true - but if you're recording, you don't need that bass. The bass needs bass.

 

[complex-barb.0t]

I just made this a few days ago. No wall wart required. Also, a vh140c clone has chugs for days.
View attachment 135553View attachment 135554

The FleshRot v2 kicks serious ass. It sounds better than most of my amps. I have a similar pedalboard but run it into channel 1 on a Friedman IR-X.

The FleshRot is better than the Chug. Own both and the Chug sits on the shelf.

 

[complex-barb.0t]

…Also on a Natas vs Chug choice, the clear winner is the OG Amptweaker Tight Metal Pro:

 

[DECEMBER]

Have you thought about sticking an EQ in the fx loop? Btw, I remember now trying G20 in a local shop and I also remember it being unpleasantly honky in the mids, so apparently it's a feature. Didn't like it at all.

With that in mind, have you considered a modeler? Cause it's pretty much a bog standard trick - find a model you like, stick an EQ after it and dial to your liking. If you're using IRs, you have a choice of IR on top of it all so that you have even more options.

I have a 10 band parametric EQ in the loop. If the low end is loose and flubby, or tubby and muddy, there's not much you can do with EQ: you can cut the low end but it's still flubby or muddy, just less of it, so either there's no low end or there's loose/muddy low end... either way, you don't get that tight punchy percussive thump that doesn't get lost in the actual bass guitar. And even with a Precision Drive, the G4 just doesn't do those sharp chugs.
My Flextone amp is a modeler. I've actually tried a few floor modelers, plugins, analog cab sims, and a Boss Katana... Couldn't stand them. But I like the Flextone a lot more than the 4 tube amps I've gone thru. A couple of the high gain models totally destroy my tube amps; the shape of the tone/EQ is just so much more "right" . But it's lacking in clarity and definition and the low end is still a bit tubby and muddy. But one of the clean models sounds great with the G4... with a Buxom Boost and Precision Drive in front. But it's still just a muddy, flubby distortion pedal.
So it's really just down to: I need the right distortion pedal, and it's between the Chug and Natas. I was just looking for feedback from actual owners of them to maybe help my decision.
But I was just about to checkout with the Chug on the Solar site and thought "why not check Reverb one more time, even though I have every day this week"... But there was one that had just shown up, so I swooped it up for $180 shipped from CO. Saved $28 and I don't have to wait for it to go thru customs.
I'm thinking about just buying a Natas, too, then selling one after I get to compare them in my rig. I have a coupon to get it for $30 off, so I can probably sell either for about the same price I paid.

 

[DECEMBER]

None of those are speakers I'd use by themselves with your tube amps, personally. The DV-77 is dark, I didn't care for it at all by itself but it mixes well with a V30-like speaker. The GA10-SC64 is 10" and is just going accentuate the rolled off low-end of the EL84 power section. The Creamback is great, but not something I'd use for metal by itself, either. The G12L has a decent following online but I've never tried one, from what I gather, it has a very small magnet and was in Marshall's budget line at the time. The Invective was voiced for a V30/G12H-75 combo. The Creamback rounds out the lower mid range and adds some smoothness, but it's the V30 that gives it the bite and low end definition.

The Invective MH was anything but muddy when I owned it. Easily the tightest amp I've ever played with the gate and boost engaged and very articulate. Maybe not as much as an EVH or a Soldano, but for the price, it easily outperformed everything in its class. Are you playing with an 8 string or something? The only way I can fathom it being muddy in the low end is if you're overloading the front end with bass. Yes, your Flextone probably has more bass, that's almost definitely true - but if you're recording, you don't need that bass. The bass needs bass.

The GA10-SC64 actually has more low end thru the mics than the 12" speakers. And it's in a better frequency range for recording. It's actually quite good for high gain, and was recommended to me for that by Eminence. It doesn't have the wonky excessive midrange like Celestions do (I can't stand British voiced anything). Yes, the DV-77 is dark and fluffy in the 400-500Hz area.
The stock Celestions in the Flextone I actually like a lot more than the Creamback or DV-77. They're not all middy like most Celestions. They mix well with the GA10-SC64. I record the Flextone wet in stereo and the GA10 dry (just after EQ) on the Invective power amp, 2 mics on each speaker. Then I can mix & match after recording and pick which mic/speaker combo sounds best for each part.
Maybe I got a dud, but I've tried everything possible with the Invective and it's just harsh, tubby, boxy, muddy, no matter what. The midrange on all of my tube amps is excessive and unbalanced. The Invective is almost there... it does the sound but the shape/EQ of it is just wrong. And the gate is too aggressive. I'm definitely not overloading it with too much bass. I have EMG 81X/60X with a VMC that I use to cut between 180-250Hz: the mudrange, but the amp still has that tubby/boxy low-midrange. And cutting that on the guitar makes the output lower, so it doesn't end up opening the gate enough, chugs get chopped off on the attack.
It's a 6 string in drop-D, A=432Hz,
54 38 28 20w 15 11.
It's not so much that the Flextone has more bass, it's that it's more punchy and defined, on the clean channel at least. The high gain channel is still a bit fluffy and tubby, yet shaped so much closer to what I need than the tube amps. But still not quite right.
The best sound I'm getting is the G4 into clean (with Buxom Boost and Precision Drive), but it's just not tight, sharp distortion. It's like, I got the sound I need, I just need the distortion pedal to be shaped right and react right. Which is why I posted this asking about the Natas and Chug. I've done everything else there is to do, short of buying a $2000+ amp (which I can't afford and can't use in an apartment).
A Chug popped up on Reverb today and I swooped it up for $180 shipped, so I should be able to sell it for what I paid if it doesn't work out.
I'm still thinking I should probably just get a Natas, too. Since I can get it for $30 off right now, I'm sure I could sell that for little to no loss. There's really no way to know until you have them plugged into your own rig.
But for some reason I still try to ask groups/forums for info, even though 90+% of the replies suggest anything but the specific pedals I asked about. I asked for feedback on 2 specific analog pedals, and how many people replied with "get plugins"...?!

 

[DECEMBER]

It sounds to me like you need to sell the small EL84 20w tube amps and get a 100w tube amp with 6L6s. Those small EL84 tube amps are horrible for good deep chugs. You really need higher wattage with bigger tubes for that.

Either of these pedals would sound bigger into a bigger power section.

I don't need bigger, I need tighter and more clarity. I'm in an apartment, I can't use anything bigger. I got a good clean channel on the Flextone, I just need the right distortion pedal. The G4 gets close, but needs a Buxom Boost AND Precision Drive in front to get it close, and it's still just close. And the extra gain stages just add to the noise.

 

[DECEMBER]

Yeeeeeeaaaaah so I'm thinking this is a case of either user error, or some VERY bad apartment power that no outboard gear will solve, or both. And I don't mean that to insult, but I'm simply stating with what you have, you should be able to pull the tones you want, and it's your personal experience against the bulk of anyone who has used these products.

Buying these pedals is not going to fix your problem, I can all but guarantee that. The Invective MH, while likely not the be-all-end-all of metal tones, is very much serviceable and ought to get where you need to go. The Revv, while not exactly my favorite amp, will easily get there with a suitable boost pedal. If you have noise, you need a gate, and there is no getting around it.

But also, if you absolutely will not consider the idea the above, buy the Chug.

I've done everything that can possibly be done and the G20 and Invective do not sound right. Precision Drive, Buxom Boost, 10 band parametric EQ, sonic maximizer... nothing gets rid of the tubby/muddy/boxy low-mids or the airy/fluffy higher mids. The G20 has a honk even with the mids at 0.
G4 -> clean Flextone sounds the best, but it takes the BB AND PD to get it close, but it's still just close. And the extra gain stages just add to the noise.
I really just need the right distortion pedal. I don't know why I bother asking on forums. 90+% of replies suggest anything but what was asked about, or try to convince you that you don't know what you're doing, and how many people even suggested I "get plugins"...?!
I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm looking for, and I'm already really close to it, it's really just a matter of getting the right distortion pedal. The G4 is very much like a fuzz: deep, dark, thick, undefined, and a little buzzy. The G20 amp sounds very similar, but with a honky excessive midrange. And even with the PD, on red aggression, with gain and treble maxed, it does not do the tight sharp chugs, not even close to either of these pedals. It's more of a 'blub blub' than a chug.
Invective chugs, but it's tubby, muddy, harsh, and hissy. The shape/EQ of it is just so wrong. And the fizz! All 4 tube amps have SO much more fizz than anything high gain on the Flextone, or pedals into it clean.
The noise is manageable, with a gate in front and another at the end of the FX loop, and active EMGs. But I know it would be even less if I just needed one pedal to get the right sound, instead of 3 stacked to get close to it.

 

[DECEMBER]

Have you tried already recording through the Invective's usb audio out? I believe it has less interference issues, rather than through cab/mic/preamp way.
Regardless, i believe you 'll still have noise issues due to bad power cabling(?) even with a nice analog preamp pedal...

It's only the Invective that has too much noise to use for recording. Everything else is manageable with 2 gates.
No, the USB output would be unusable to record. I have several amps and pedals that have USB and being connected to the PC adds a whole lot of noise. Nasty digital noise. l got line isolators w/ground lifts to use with the XLR outs, but noise or not, they are not something I would ever use in a song that I would let anyone hear.
I record speakers with mics. I have 0 interest in any DI/IR/cab sims. I've tried enough of them to know I absolutely cannot stand them.

 

[LeftOurEyes]

I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm looking for, and I'm already really close to it, it's really just a matter of getting the right distortion pedal.

Respectfully, If you are using 2 overdrives on a EL84 amp (which usually have less bass than bigger amps) and still have really tubby bass then you don't know what you are doing. Even the really tubby amps I own sound great when I use an overdrive and I've never had a problem getting them dialed in right. As far as noise, maybe you are adding too much volume or gain from the overdrives but something does not sound right. The noise gate on the precision drive is not that great in my experience and I have preferred a separate noise gate pedal to get amps dead silent. Depending on the amp and setup/pedals used some people might need two noise gates for the dead silent palm mute chugs, one after the overdrive and one in the loop.

As far as the honky mids goes, most overdrives add mids a little so using an amp that already has a decent amount of mids, then adding two more pedals with more mids can easily make things honky.

This forum also sucks for getting people to give you recommendations that you ask for. You can specifically say that you have tried something and don't like it and someone will still recommend it again anyway or tell you to just try it again. In this case though I doubt many people have tried both of these pedals yet (mainly the Fortin one) so it will be hard to get a comparison from anyone here.

If you are having trouble getting a usable tone from an invective mh then it doesn't sound like a preamp pedal is going to magically fix everything. 5150 voiced amps can be a little fizzy so there is a chance you will like something else, but after 4 amps having the same problem it just sounds like user error to me and everyone else here.

 

[ExMachina]

Get the chug, it's cheaper, does the same thing and I think badseed, a user on here liked the chug more.

Can we talk about the real.fix now that I've solved your pedal problem?

 

[HeHasTheJazzHands]

Get the chug, it's cheaper, does the same thing and I think badseed, a user on here liked the chug more.

Can we talk about the real.fix now that I've solved your pedal problem?

Nah he said he hates the Chug more lol

 

[ExMachina]

Nah he said he hates the Chug more lol

Nevermind, get the natas