Glossary of Luthier/Builder Complaints: Caveat Emptor

[KnightBrolaire]

I don't know. *shrugs* But it's a thing, on guitars with "hemispherical fret ends", or whatever they are called. They are generally bound fretboards, so perhaps that's a part of it the concept? No idea. It looks nice and comfy, but i's illogical...either the neck is needlessly wide, or the strings will have issues on shortened frets.

that's not what diagrammatiks was talking about, he's saying the uneven fret lengths are issue. It's not that hard to actually cut frets to the proper size, and no competent luthier should be messing that up.
hemi frets have nothing to do with bound fretboards, it's just a really nice feature to have, plus they typically mitigate sharp edges on fret ends. You don't even have to do fully hemispherical fret ends to get the benefits, they just look really nice.
When done properly there shouldn't be any issue with string slippage, if there is, that means they ended up removing a bunch of fret material they didn't need to.

 

[spudmunkey]

that's not what diagrammatiks was talking about, he's saying the uneven fret lengths are issue.

Right, but the post I was replying to was asking what the point was of the frets stopping short of the end. I had already mentioned they still should all be the same, though.

hemi frets have nothing to do with bound fretboards,

True. I had only noticed them before on bound fretboards, but I see other examples. I knew that it wasn't necessary with bound fretboards, but it seemed like I had only seen the fret finishing feature on guitars with bound fretboards.

 

[Lorcan Ward]

Ive already explained its for two reasons. One to allow room for the fretboard to shrink so the ends don’t stick out and dig into your hand when you move up and down, it’s just future proofing. This is a huge problem on the ibanez premium line, if they did this it would solve a lot of the problems with their sharp fret ends. Same with the complaints people have with kiesel and other guitars that seem prone to wood shrinkage issues. Although improperly dried wood is a whole other problem this isn’t going to really solve, it’s more to allow some fluctuations and movement for stable guitars during seasonal change. Some builders swear by it others don’t bother. Each have different reasons.

The second is just for additional comfort pushing the fret end ever so slightly back so there is less contact with your hand when you’re moving up and down. This isn’t really needed but with ball end frets they actually stick out more than regular triangle ends so it helps. It’s something you notice when you try a few guitars ball ends and feel the difference. Downside is it takes room away for the strings at the edge of the fretboard. Ball ends and back in a little more surface area so you can take it away again. One of those minuscule details but there are builders/techs very against ball ends because of this.

That lion heart is just terrible execution, it’s only supposed to be a small line.

 

[SDMFVan]

I did, I understand you tbh. 4k is a lot.
At the same time I would take your guitar over any prs or suhr, if it didn't had spacing issues.
Raw wood is like that and I prefer to see something like your guitar than a prs encased in plastic.

Excluding the serious build issues, half of the cosmetics you mention are non issues to me, even though almost everything seems redeemable, and they should have tried a bit more.

A screenshot of this post needs to be the reply to every "how do people still get scammed?" post from here on out.

You'd take this janky pile of trash over any PRS or Suhr??

 

[diagrammatiks]

A screenshot of this post needs to be the reply to every "how do people still get scammed?" post from here on out.

You'd take this janky pile of trash over any PRS or Suhr??

imagine thinking that a piece of wood is supposed to look like it's encased in resin and epoxy and that that is somehow better then a properly finished prs.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

If it was properly made (without structural and fretwork issues) yes. This guitar is obviously flawed.
I don't mind the small stuff, if it's mostly handmade. Especially if the finish is thin and feeling natural.

Thing is, with some care most of the issues could be addressed, but the builder did nothing.
I also wouldn't call it a pile of trash, I will keep that designation for any ovepriced Fender, gnl, surh and so on... anything that is cheap by design.

 

[USMarine75]

If it was properly made (without structural and fretwork issues) yes. This guitar is obviously flawed.
I don't mind the small stuff, if it's mostly handmade. Especially if the finish is thin and feeling natural.

Thing is, with some care most of the issues could be addressed, but the builder did nothing.
I also wouldn't call it a pile of trash, I will keep that designation for any ovepriced Fender, gnl, surh and so on... anything that is cheap by design.

So a $4k Suhr or Fender "pile of trash" is some-how "overpriced"? I don't think you understand business or guitar manufacturing. You do realize that the "overpriced" Fender you're talking about (at that price point) is prob a masterbuilt custom shop guitar. So one master luthier worked on that guitar from start to finish - handcrafting, finishing, and inspecting it. You know, the exact same thing that home-made raw guitar above had?

The reason custom shop custom Gibsons, or Fender masterbuilt, or Framus masterbuilt, etc are "overpriced" is because they are literally being built the same exact way ViK, Daemoness, Oni, whatever that monstrosity above is, etc.

The reason a Knaggs guitar is $3-4k is because you're getting a guitar from the guy that was the PRS masterbuilder. When you get a $3k Mike Lipe guitar, you're getting a LACS custom shop guitar from the man himself. When you get something from BRJ you're getting a... wait... nevermind. Anyways, you get my point. Or most likely, not.

99% of the Fender/Gibson/etc complaints about those guitars being too expensive are BS anyways (including yours). A MIJ Ibby is now $1500-$3k.

https://work.chron.com/average-income-luthier-26719.html
Also, the average luthier in US makes $20-24/hour (I suspect MIJ is similar). I couldn't find it, but I wonder what an Indonesian luthier makes? Companies like Cort moved production there because Korea had organized unions and wanted higher wages. So should US companies pay their luthiers competitively to compensate?

tl;dr derp.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

Yes having a master luthier starring at a cnc machine is tough work... It's very hard to sand and screw 2 finished pieces of wood together...
I hope you understand that all big companies work with cnc's that essentially spit out guitar kits ready for assembly. This has nothing to do with luthiery. Small builders can have various ways of doing things, and more often than not, are legit.

But hey, it's not like I have ever been involved with the making of an electric guitar.
Fun fact, the raw materials and parts of the 2nd build are more expensive than what I payed for my Gibby new.
I also haven't mentioned any price point in the post above. Just what I believe every fender style guitar to be.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

cnc's that essentially spit out guitar kits ready for assembly

But really, let's try to keep this on topic. While I wasn't too keen on this thread originally, it's been okay until recently. I'd hate to have to nuke it.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

Yes I forgot, sanding is difficult^^

 

[diagrammatiks]

So a $4k Suhr or Fender "pile of trash" is some-how "overpriced"? I don't think you understand business or guitar manufacturing. You do realize that the "overpriced" Fender you're talking about (at that price point) is prob a masterbuilt custom shop guitar. So one master luthier worked on that guitar from start to finish - handcrafting, finishing, and inspecting it. You know, the exact same thing that home-made raw guitar above had?

The reason custom shop custom Gibsons, or Fender masterbuilt, or Framus masterbuilt, etc are "overpriced" is because they are literally being built the same exact way ViK, Daemoness, Oni, whatever that monstrosity above is, etc.

The reason a Knaggs guitar is $3-4k is because you're getting a guitar from the guy that was the PRS masterbuilder. When you get a $3k Mike Lipe guitar, you're getting a LACS custom shop guitar from the man himself. When you get something from BRJ you're getting a... wait... nevermind. Anyways, you get my point. Or most likely, not.

99% of the Fender/Gibson/etc complaints about those guitars being too expensive are BS anyways (including yours). A MIJ Ibby is now $1500-$3k.

https://work.chron.com/average-income-luthier-26719.html
Also, the average luthier in US makes $20-24/hour (I suspect MIJ is similar). I couldn't find it, but I wonder what an Indonesian luthier makes? Companies like Cort moved production there because Korea had organized unions and wanted higher wages. So should US companies pay their luthiers competitively to compensate?

tl;dr derp.

sometimes you just gotta give up cuz you realize you are arguing with a special kind of genius.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Yes I forgot, sanding is difficult^^

I remember now that we've had this conversation before.

I've posted a rather lengthy, yet precise explanation of what goes into modern (CNC aided) guitar building written by someone who I'd consider to be one of the best living builders, and probably one of the best ever as far as technical ability and proficiency at fine detail work that most shops farm out.

If it makes you more comfortable to distill that down to "sanding" that's fine.

 

[USMarine75]

But really, let's try to keep this on topic. While I wasn't too keen on this thread originally, it's been okay until recently. I'd hate to have to nuke it.

Can I apply for a 24 hour waiver? Or can you split the thread? This is pure comedy gold.

BTW... Shadowexploder = Ed Roman? You be the judge:
http://www.edroman.com/rants/cncmachines.htm

 

[Shadow Explorer]

Max indeed.
I'm not trying to look down on the process, as I partially have built some stuff like that.
But it's much much easier than doing it entirely by hand.

I never commented on any price point.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

Can I apply for a 24 hour waiver? Or can you split the thread? This is pure comedy gold.

BTW... Shadowexploder = Ed Roman? You be the judge:
http://www.edroman.com/rants/cncmachines.htm

Check google for factory tours.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I also wouldn't call it a pile of trash, I will keep that designation for any ovepriced Fender, gnl, surh and so on.

I'm not trying to look down on the process

I never commented on any price point.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

There is not a pricepoint set,just what I belive most to be, but in the context of the tread,my wrong.

 

[USMarine75]

I did, I understand you tbh. 4k is a lot.
At the same time I would take your guitar over any prs or suhr, if it didn't had spacing issues.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

That's taking my comment out of context considering the last posts, don't you think?
At this point I think you just want to comment something back. No point in arguing like that.

 

[USMarine75]

That's taking my comment out of context considering the last posts, don't you think?
At this point I think you just want to comment something back. No point in arguing like that.

OK... I'll play.

You were talking about the quality of a $4k guitar. You then referenced other brands. I compared apples to apples: $4k worth of that thing and $4k worth of Suhr, Gibson, Fender, etc. (Was I supposed to compare a $4k custom monstrosity to an overpriced $400 Fender?)