Help me understand "Engine No. 9" by Deftones

[Nag]

This is my second thread for a Deftones song, but don't worry, it's gonna be the last one (I'm not that big of a fan overall). Another riff from the same album, this time I'm about the main riff in "Engine No. 9"

Quick insert of what I mean, hopefully this upload works:



So yeah this riff. I have X'd out the problematic bit on purpose.

1) So first we hear it in the intro, just played as single notes on the low E. It's played loosely, so I'm assuming alternate-picked, just 2-3-2-0 looped. That's fine.

2) Then we hear it with the full chords and full band, before the chorus riff, still in the intro. I'm fairly sure he doesn't pick every chord. In my mind, what makes the most sense with what's playable and what I hear is : pick the F#5 that lands on the beat, slide up to G5, slide back down to F#5, then... then what? I'm not sure what that last chord is. Many tabs write it out as a good old E5 but I've seen this in a bunch of tabs where it's barely playable and unrealistic. It would require going with the index from the E to the A string and then right back to the E string, all the time. Or sliding off behind the nut with the index finger on the E to play the B of the E5 with your A string finger, which I just don't believe in either.

It could be just an open note on the low E, which gives me a few options. Option one is what Metallica do in a few songs : they'll fret an F#5 or a B5 on fret 2, lift the index, play that "04" chord, then put the index finger back. I don't think that's what I hear though. Option two is to lift both fingers and put them right back, so playing 24 00 24. That could be it but I'm not sure. Option three would be to just play an open low E and lift the finger off the A string to mute that, before going back to the next F#5. I do think I'm hearing a full chord though. So what does he play there exactly? Does anyone know?

3) During the verse, I'm fairly sure he plays the full chords, and not single notes, palm muted. Which means it's kinda guaranteed to be something that's relatively easy to fret. But again, I'm hearing full chords the entire time, so I'm second-guessing the "just a normal E5" thing again, regardless how awkward/tiring that is to play for the entire song. Speaking of tiring, downpicking the verse is a bitch IMO. But I think that's what he's doing. My wrists may not enjoy.

So yeah kind of the same as the other thread. TLDR "wtf is that one chord in that one riff".

 

[Winspear]

That problematic index finger motion you spoke of, might be a good one to work on here at this tempo. I do that kind of motion a lot and never really paid attention to it until reading this. Admittedly it is tiring repeat it over and over but doesn't feel too bad to me currently. Seems very achievable to get fine with at this tempo with some practice. Key is making the first movement essentially a pulloff from the E string fret 2 and just land directly on A string fret 2, only actively lifting the index finger to place it back on the E, rather than for both directions. Sent you a little video on discord. I'm inclined to just pick twice and slide 232 but I'm not saying that's accurate to the song

 

[bostjan]

Watching the Rock in Rio video of them playing it live, it looks very much like he's sliding from the F#5 to G5, and then just pulling off the low F# in the second F#5 chord to an open E. No idea if it's the same way on the record, but it's very likely similar.

 

[Crungy]

I thought he did a playthrough of that one on their YouTube but not yet. Lots of other jams though!

 

[Nag]

I'm waiting for hardcore Deftones fans to chime in with even more knowledge. Hopefully we won't need the spectrum analyzer today

 

[Bakerman]

It's open E & A strings most of the time. A couple spots in the intro sound like just the E note in one channel.

 

[wankerness]

Wow, this topic brings back memories. I vividly remember struggling with this back in high school in like the year 2000. All the tabs had it as the sequence of powerchords which made it radically harder than anything else in the entire deftones catalog (which at that time was only three albums, but still). The only other thing they had that came close was the second intro riff of root, where the riff changes to powerchords, but that didn’t have the same issue.

Glad to hear from bakerman that steph wasn’t some secret guitar god on their debut and he was playing a much easier version of the riff than I used to struggle with!

 

[Nag]

A lot of it boils down to bad tabs. Even for famous bands, a lot of bad tabs. I've seen quick jumps like this F#5-E5-F#5 or similar in so many tabs where it's just not possible that they're playing it, based on the speed/length of the song.

There's this Art-Of-Guitar channel on YouTube who has a whole series on awful old "official" tab books for famous bands (Metallica, Pantera...). These tab books being called "official" led people to believe they were quality stuff, tabbed by professionals and/or the band themselves, but they often were just garbage that wasn't proofread at all, an easy cash grab at the expense of musician fans of the band. But since they're "official", plenty of people learnt some of the most famous songs just wrong, and the correct info only pierces through that "official" label slowly.

And I dunno about you, but have you ever tried tabbing an entire song by yourself? I say it's bad tabs, but tabbing stuff just by ear is HARD, man. Add to that that people who tab are amateurs, often younger because adults have less time, so these tabs are made by people with less experience, less music knowledge, and less critical thinking. I learned a whole lot of tabs literally by correcting the stuff that just could not be correct, be it because it sounded wrong or wasn't physically frettable/pickable as indicated. Most tabs go through several cycles of correction before being really reliable.

Usually I correct them on my own, but sometimes I'm really not sure, so I make a thread like this, hoping to hear from knowledgeable fans.

Another aspect is we now have internet, youtube, twitch, and quality phones. People try making quality covers of these songs, which requires practicing the song until you play it smoothly. Take this very song. If you want to play that low E as a normal power chord, it's both hard/tiring to fret and it makes the picking pattern more complicated. Someone who would practice this song for hours and hours is just bound to go "wait, that just can't be it". We can slow down the song on youtube, people take out the friggin spectrum analyzer, we have all these tools to just check tabs in great detail. We have high quality videos of the band performing it live, too. Just way more tools to correct the tabs further. The limiting factor is the fame of the band.

 

[Lan]

I read this thread not too long ago- and then by chance, found that Steph posted an Elite playthrough. Obviously not the same song, but the way that he approaches this riff should give a bit of insight as to what technique he'd be using on Engine, as it has a similar pattern.
The riff was written five years after Engine no 9, but having seen Stef's playthroughs, he tends to follow a pretty set formula when it comes to his technique, so it's not a stretch to think that he would take a similar approach to both songs.

 

[c7spheres]

I thought I posted a bunch of stuff in here didn't I? Just curious if it was deleted to clean thread up or if I forgot to hit post. I don't wanna repost to have deleted again if that's the case.

 

[Lan]

I thought I posted a bunch of stuff in here didn't I? Just curious if it was deleted to clean thread up or if I forgot to hit post. I don't wanna repost to have deleted again if that's the case.

No idea - I cannot see any posts of yours in this thread. I didn't know stuff gets deleted remotely; if that's the case.

 

[c7spheres]

No idea - I cannot see any posts of yours in this thread. I didn't know stuff gets deleted remotely; if that's the case.

I don't think it / they normally does/do. I probably forgot to hit post reply or my internet went down and I didn't realize it. ugh.

 

[c7spheres]

.... they'll fret an F#5 or a B5 on fret 2, lift the index, play that "04" chord, then put the index finger back.

Lift the index, but don't play that "04" chord, then put the index finger back. It's the full E5 chord and an upstroke it seems to my ears. He may even be doing a slide up on the first one. - Seems to be all up/down picking too for that riff. ALSO, Only upstroke and change the index from the 2nd fret to open and do the upstrok at teh exact same time.
- It's more of a snap then a lift off of the finger to. It doens't actually snap the string but it snaps off the string. Sorry if confusing.
- This is that type stuff that only works while in motion.
- One thing to increase speed on this one for example might be to lessen the pressure on the second and fourth chugs. You feel kind of a pulse on the down strokes. By lessening pressure on the upstrokes it allows you to change direction faster and that index lifting helps too. Be loose with it. If you try to be all tight and stay close to the fretboard it wll be to stiff and slow you down. Remember to keep pressure on the palm parts though still when needed.

 

[Lan]

He finally got around to Engine No. 9

 

[c7spheres]

He finally got around to Engine No. 9

The clip you want is around 0:48 seconds or so. PUt it in half speed mode. He ain't even playing it at all that 4th xx part on your tab is just an open e upstroke. He ain't even playing it right! haha. jk.

 

[Nag]

the XX thing was just me saying there's a thing he plays for that duration that I'm trying to figure out, had to code it somehow on the tab.

What's more interesting to me in that video is his picking pattern across the different variations of that riff. Not what I thought!

 

[c7spheres]

the XX thing was just me saying there's a thing he plays for that duration that I'm trying to figure out, had to code it somehow on the tab.

What's more interesting to me in that video is his picking pattern across the different variations of that riff. Not what I thought!

I wonder if it really is that tight where he does exact pattern every time or if he just flows it. It looks like sometimes he he's two strings sometimes one on that open sometimes he's upstroking a few strings etc., but it looks on purpose too, like built in randomness/ variations - Steph is awesome. It's like he read your thread and made the vid for you or something! : )

 

[Nag]

that would be funny

TBH with any song by any band, if you look into things for long enough, you pick up on an insane amount of small details. The picking patterns, where it's played on the neck, where it's picked along the strings, exact chord shapes and which strings are played... you really could look into any song and find so many things that make them sound ultimately different from what you're doing. It's not necessary, because anything that sounds good is good, but it's interesting (and nerdy, admittedly) and sometimes when you're just not sure how a song is played, it's frequently because of something you're not doing like the person who recorded it.

 

[knox1987]

What’s to understand….