Help needed: Solos and scale modes...for dummies

[OmegaSlayer]

First of all, I'm self thought on the guitar.

I just got a hang, after loads of years, finally on how the Modes relate with the others, and how to figure out modes.
I know, I'm thick and, it's hard without proper theory basis.
Finally I understand on the guitar, mechanically how it works, and the thory fell in clearly to fit in what I learned.
The "practice" usually helps me to understand the "theory", not the other way around unfortunately

So I would like to move onto applying what I learned.
If I have a very simple 4 chords sequence Em-D-C-D how can I move to solo over it?
Easiest stuff is going E Aeolian all over and the deal is sealed, simple, catchy, ear pleasing but eventually boring.

So, how can I move around those chord sequence in a more interesting way?
Please keep the theory to very little easy chunks.

 

[ElectricEelChair]

If playing in e natural minor (aeolian) just thinking of it in e is ok. When coming to the d chords you could try d mixolydian, and for c think in c Lydian. Now, all those modes have the same key signature so you could think of it as all really in e minor but just using different root notes. If you want something more atonal try using e Dorian (an old jazz trick) or just play d major when d chord shows up, and c major when c chord shows up. Not really sure if this answers your question, if not ask again and ill try again

 

[OmegaSlayer]

First of all thanks ^__^
Trying to use the Em-D-C-D as the most easiest and common sequence to start figuring on easy stuff before moving to harder places.

If playing in e natural minor (aeolian) just thinking of it in e is ok. When coming to the d chords you could try d mixolydian, and for c think in c Lydian. Now, all those modes have the same key signature so you could think of it as all really in e minor but just using different root notes.

I figured up to this point both in theory and practice but...let me try to word it well LOL
Kind of lack the "vibe", the feel I'm doing something different.
I guess this relies most on the notes on which I stop or that have importance in the bar.
I mean, you play the E Aeolian and you quite can't go wrong on that sequence but it...hmm...lacks taste somehow.
I pretty much think that it lacks my acknowledgement of what I play which is mostly the purpose of the mode

If you want something more atonal try using e Dorian (an old jazz trick)

Must try that EDIT (Isn't e Dorian = D Ionian?)

or just play d major when d chord shows up, and c major when c chord shows up. Not really sure if this answers your question, if not ask again and ill try again

And I quite of figure that, but it gives me a headache about what goes on melodically.
Now...with E Aeolian I have an E-F#-G-A-B-C-D scale.
when I move to D Ionian I have a D-E-F#-G-A-B-C# which has that C# (VII wanting to resolve on the D) that really mess towards the C Ionian (C-D-E-F-G-A-B) I'm moving onto for the next chord.
This problem doesn't apply melodically moving from D to Em.
Back to the passage D to C, if I remove the odd note, basically I'm still playing an E Aeolian, a crippled E Aeolian, which is not the point when you try to give some flavour to the overall lead.

 

[Solodini]

Your playing will feel like it has direction if you pay attention to the pull of chord tones. The most important, simple part of making your playing feel like it fits the chords is playing chord tones on beats 1 and 3. Around that, you can play anything, if it sounds decent enough.

Work on trying different directions of movement between the chord tones: you could ascend from G toward E, descent from G toward B (using some leaps such as GF#DCB), you could go from B and ascend past E but then return back down (BCDF#E) or do the same but descending past then returning back up and you can make use of your bends that way. You can also move in sequences (CG DA, EB BA, A which takes you through a bar of Em to the beginning of a bar of D), or sequences which vary: C descending to G is a 4th, D descending to B is a 3rd, E descending to D is a 2nd, C descending to A is a 3rd, so we're going 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd.

Repetition can stop your licks from sounding too linear. Try playing the chord tone at the end of the previous bar, as well:
1+2+3+4+ 1+2+3+4+
CGDBEDCA A

Rests are important but not just to fill out the end of a bar. Try to make your runs cross barlines to connect each bar to the next and stop yourself sounding like you're just running licks for each chord: sound like you're interacting with the music and understand which ideas link together.

Play around with inverting some intervals within your licks, C ascending to G, D ascending to B, E descending to D still, C ascending to A.

You don't necessarily want all of your notes to sound too "perfect" as tension keeps things moving. The notes close to chord tones will be easy tension to resolve, those a minor 2nd away. Try using the off note on one of those main beats to hold off the resolution and keep the listener paying attention until you say then can relax.

I hope that helps some.

 

[ghost_of_karelia]

Solodini's note about chord tones hit the nail on the head - mindlessly playing random notes in a box shape you've learned is not the way to solo, your solos will have no direction, little coherency and no phrasing whatsoever. Use the chord tones, and dip into non-diatonic tones (playing the odd C# in a C major lick between chord tones) to give it a chromatic feel, I often find that helps me.

One thing you need to understand about modes is that they depend entirely on harmony, that is their tonality depends on the chord you're playing it over. The notes in C Lydian and F Ionian are exactly the same, but if you're playing what you believe is a C Lydian solo over an F chord, it's going to be F major. If you play a G Aeolian lick over a Csus4 chord, it's C Dorian whether you like it or not. Don't overcomplicate things, stick to a couple of common scales before you jump into modes, and try and concentrate more on phrasing and, above all - rhythm. Know where to put the rests, don't try and cram as many notes as you can into one bar.

 

[HoneyNut]

I was reading some Jazz books which , instead of teaching the modes first, focuses on the arpeggio shapes. I guess when Jazz players see chord changes, they immediately play the chord tones(arpeggios). I'm not a jazz player (strive to play like one though), but I think it makes sense to play the notes of the chord you are playing over.

For example, over an Emin chord, a player would primarily play the Emin arpeggio notes (notes E,G,B, and F#)

For Minor chords, I learnt that Jazz players usually use the Dorian Mode (for scale choice), but sometimes use the other modes depending on the mood - that choice apparently is totally upto the player.

In conclusion, knowing all the arpeggio shapes of the minor chords and major chords all over the fretboard is key. So when the B#Maj7 chord shows up in the song, you know that your trusted notes are within the B#Maj 7 arpeggio shape.

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For your progression - Em D C D, you would theoretically play

Eminor arpeggio (notes in the chord are E,G,B) when E min is playing
DMaj arpeggio (D, F#, G) when D Maj is playing
CMaj arpeggio (C, E, G) when C Maj is playing

You would play the "in-between" notes when you are running from one primary note to the other primary note.

That's the basic gist of how jazz players learn to play chord changes, unlike us rock fanatics who start to shred on the pentatonic before anything else!

(Mind you, for rock playing, you do not need to know chord tones as much since rock music usually have 1 key in which the song is based...chord tones become more important when there are key changes in the song which is predominant in jazz and more complex music)

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

One thing you need to understand about modes is that they depend entirely on harmony, that is their tonality depends on the chord you're playing it over. The notes in C Lydian and F Ionian are exactly the same, but if you're playing what you believe is a C Lydian solo over an F chord, it's going to be F major. If you play a G Aeolian lick over a Csus4 chord, it's C Dorian whether you like it or not. Don't overcomplicate things, stick to a couple of common scales before you jump into modes, and try and concentrate more on phrasing and, above all - rhythm. Know where to put the rests, don't try and cram as many notes as you can into one bar.

Augh, chord-scales. Nooooooo!

For example, over an Emin chord, a player would primarily play the Emin arpeggio notes (notes E,G,B, and F#)

For Minor chords, I learnt that Jazz players usually use the Dorian Mode (for scale choice), but sometimes use the other modes depending on the mood - that choice apparently is totally upto the player.

In conclusion, knowing all the arpeggio shapes of the minor chords and major chords all over the fretboard is key. So when the B#Maj7 chord shows up in the song, you know that your trusted notes are within the B#Maj 7 arpeggio shape.

----------------

For your progression - Em D C D, you would theoretically play

Eminor arpeggio (notes in the chord are E,G,B) when E min is playing
DMaj arpeggio (D, F#, G) when D Maj is playing
CMaj arpeggio (C, E, G) when C Maj is playing

You would play the "in-between" notes when you are running from one primary note to the other primary note.

That's the basic gist of how jazz players learn to play chord changes, unlike us rock fanatics who start to shred on the pentatonic before anything else!

You should check some of those chord spellings.

(Mind you, for rock playing, you do not need to know chord tones as much since rock music usually have 1 key in which the song is based...chord tones become more important when there are key changes in the song which is predominant in jazz and more complex music)

Everybody needs to learn chords and chord tones. If you learn scales and leave it at that, or that godawful chord-scale concept, you're pigeonholing yourself.

 

[HoneyNut]

Mr. Big Noodles is right about not pigeonholing yourself. Learn everything you can, including spellings, of course. All the best in your growth as a player!

 

[OmegaSlayer]

First of all, thanks all of you for the valuable infos.
I gave those a good read, but will go through them another couple of times, then get a guitar and apply what I read, then come back.
Still I'm curious about these 2 points

Augh, chord-scales. Nooooooo!

What does it mean?
Why is it bad?

Everybody needs to learn chords and chord tones.

What does chord tone means?
Sorry, but I have to constantly have to go between the FEW theory basics I know in Italian and the respective English terms, which already "helps" me a lot to get more confused.

 

[Solodini]

Chord tones are the notes which make up a chord/arpeggio.

Chord scales can be a short sighted approach as you're only really paying attention to the harmony of the current chord, rather than the progression and ongoing feel. Just because the chord has changed doesn't mean the key has; just because you're in a certain key doesn't mean you can't use note from outside the key. Rather than jumping from key to key, you're probably better using non-chord tones, diatonic and nondiatonic, based on which chord tones they pull toward with their tension, so you aid your progression.

 

[OmegaSlayer]

Chord tones are the notes which make up a chord/arpeggio.

Chord scales can be a short sighted approach as you're only really paying attention to the harmony of the current chord, rather than the progression and ongoing feel. Just because the chord has changed doesn't mean the key has; just because you're in a certain key doesn't mean you can't use note from outside the key. Rather than jumping from key to key, you're probably better using non-chord tones, diatonic and nondiatonic, based on which chord tones they pull toward with their tension, so you aid your progression.

Yeah, I figure out that I need AWARENESS.
My hands' skills are good, but I need THAT something more.
Let's say I started to feel that until now I "execute" melodies on the guitar, and I want to start "playing" refined music.

I tried using different "options" in notes I played, but I feel that when others go "out of the comfort scale" (to put it very simply) it sounds good, when I do, it sounds crap.
I already knew the stuff about the strong and weak beats and how they affect the flow of the melody, but I think I must really slow down down down down my playing and do some..."meandering" as Steve Stine calls it.

I lack any kind of equipment, and lack of knowledge to record backtracks, so, is there someone who can point me to some stuff on youtube that is good and easy to use?
I saw there are loads and loads of backtracking vids, but I lack the knowledge to understand if it's good for me; I mean it might sound good but too much for my level for example.
Thanks

 

[HoneyNut]

No, the backing tracks on Youtube are fine, as long as you figure out the chords. When improvising you have to know what chord is playing.

And yes, you have to slow things down and really understand why you find certain notes sound better over others.

You will realize that the certain notes sound better than others for a given chord. Those notes are probably the chord tones (the notes in the chord / arpeggio). This is almost always the case.

When a C Major chord is playing (Hope the spelling is correct), the best sounding notes would be the notes in that particular chord. The notes in C Major are : C, E and G. Hence, whenever a C Major chord comes up, you will find that these 3 notes sound the best.

Other notes work too, but those 3 notes will sound the strongest.

----

You mentioned that it sounds good when others go out of their 'comfort scale'. Do you have an example of that? As in, do you have a clip of someone going out of their comfort scale? Let me know. If not, I might have an example that may work for you.

----

 

[OmegaSlayer]

No, the backing tracks on Youtube are fine, as long as you figure out the chords. When improvising you have to know what chord is playing.

And yes, you have to slow things down and really understand why you find certain notes sound better over others.

You will realize that the certain notes sound better than others for a given chord. Those notes are probably the chord tones (the notes in the chord / arpeggio). This is almost always the case.

When a C Major chord is playing (Hope the spelling is correct), the best sounding notes would be the notes in that particular chord. The notes in C Major are : C, E and G. Hence, whenever a C Major chord comes up, you will find that these 3 notes sound the best.

Other notes work too, but those 3 notes will sound the strongest.

----

You mentioned that it sounds good when others go out of their 'comfort scale'. Do you have an example of that? As in, do you have a clip of someone going out of their comfort scale? Let me know. If not, I might have an example that may work for you.

----

Yeah, I realized about the chords/triad stuff.
I must say that my knowledge of triads and fretboard knowledge comes from almost 20 years of playing rather than knowing theory, but I know what, I know where rather quickly, even if I'm a bit slower with inversions of the triads.

Well, Andrè Olbrich from Blind Guardian often goes out of the "comfort scale", many other players like Christian Muenzner from Obscura with his scales actually give "color" to what the rhythm guitar plays.
I heard that Satriani, Malmsteen and others relies to some kind of omni scale.
Dimebag Darrell and Van Halen using simmetric patterns.
These are the firsts that spring to my mind, though something new is always welcome
I would take a look at it at it with much pleasure ^___^
Thanks

 

[HoneyNut]

Do they really use symmetric patterns? Interesting..I'd have to listen to that.

Besides what you already know, (seeming from your last post) I doubt I can provide any more input. I know that Satriani/Vai relies on the lydian modes a lot in their music, you can totally 'hear' it. I don't think they use any such symmetrical scales though.

Anyways...Good to know that you look upto Dimebag! Most modern metal guitarists don't sound like they drink enough whiskey.

 

[OmegaSlayer]

I didn't consider myself a metal guitarist anymore, I'm a bedroom warrior and I play for myself ^____^

As for Dime and Eddie, I learned about symmetric patterns through them.
The first "scale" in the solo of Cowboys From Hell for example is an 11-12-15 x2 from 6th to 1st string.

And yeah, Satriani and Vai let those Lydian sing...while I tried to jam on some youtube backtracks paying attention to chords, playing slow and with focus on the notes I'm going to fret and stuff sound TOTALLY DEAD.
Seems that when I live my Aeolian comfort zone everything loses vibe and taste.

 

[HoneyNut]

Yeah...rather do my own music than play to please others. I'm completely with you on that!

I tried to 'compromise' my tastes and joined a local soft rock band. Not worth a bit of my time and effort, even though they were good musicians in their own right. I'm not gonna do something I don't enjoy.

Hope to meet you more often in these boards!

 

[ElectricEelChair]

Another thing to help solos us to listen critically to guitar solos. A little ear training helps in being able to recognize what chord intervals people are playing and what scales they seem to be playing. Also, (maybe im weird in doing this) but I like to tab my solos out, I can see it in the sheet music and line up chord tones when I need to and make adjustments. Mainly cause im just bad at trying to figure it out by ear on the fly

 

[OmegaSlayer]

I think I should try to record something in some very rural way and post it here.
I think it would be easier for you to understand where I f' up.

 

[OmegaSlayer]

Ok, studied loads more theory and went back into it.
Still didn't record anything but everything now starts to have more sense.
IF I play slow.
What I realized though is that my classical "metal" patterns stopped to work completely, no matter the position box on the neck.
They sound way off, even if I try to play a simple scale run paying much attention to the beginning of the run, intervals and the such.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

What I realized though is that my classical "metal" patterns stopped to work completely, no matter the position box on the neck.
They sound way off, even if I try to play a simple scale run paying much attention to the beginning of the run, intervals and the such.

Explain, please.