How to detune by 33 cents using bridge? Like Hipshot Trilogy or d-tuna..

[assman]

Hiya!
i love using wide chords but god damn i'm annoyed by how thirds are out of tune. like by 33 cents or something.
i'm not a fan of adding lots of new frets on a guitar, so i'm thinking of some detunable bridge thing. Thing is i need it to be detuned only by 33 cents, so i can have my perfect thirds and with a push of a lever - my perfect fifths. (i tune in fifths)

i've researched web back and fourth and came to conclusion that there's not much i can do:
1) find a discontinued hipshot trilogy and pray that it can do less than a halfstep
2) install and mod the hell out of bigsby for it to have two distinct positions. i really need only two strings to be detuned, although i'm not sure how to make it tuneable
3) use some kind of doublebass bridge detuner thingy, but mod it to have less range and lesser ball end.
4) dunno. maybe you have better ideas?

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Perhaps go for the simple solution: the tuners, like Adrian Legg.

 

[bostjan]

Hiya!
i love using wide chords but god damn i'm annoyed by how thirds are out of tune. like by 33 cents or something.
i'm not a fan of adding lots of new frets on a guitar, so i'm thinking of some detunable bridge thing. Thing is i need it to be detuned only by 33 cents, so i can have my perfect thirds and with a push of a lever - my perfect fifths. (i tune in fifths)

i've researched web back and fourth and came to conclusion that there's not much i can do:
1) find a discontinued hipshot trilogy and pray that it can do less than a halfstep
2) install and mod the hell out of bigsby for it to have two distinct positions. i really need only two strings to be detuned, although i'm not sure how to make it tuneable
3) use some kind of doublebass bridge detuner thingy, but mod it to have less range and lesser ball end.
4) dunno. maybe you have better ideas?

How did you come up with 33 cents?

Maybe those extra frets could serve some sort of function.

 

[LiveOVErdrive]

Can try the Tom Scholz method. Tune all your strings slightly low and modulate your finger pressure to intonate.

It will take a ton of practice, but it should work.

 

[odibrom]

You could go with HipShot's Xtender machine heads... https://hipshotproducts.com/collections/guitar-xtenders

You can decide the amount of tuning change with less than a half tone, but it would require several of these in one guitar and it WILL be expensive. These things aren't cheap.

I have 2 guitars with these tuners and they are pretty damn nice, the system works perfectly...

 

[MaxOfMetal]

You could go with HipShot's Xtender machine heads... https://hipshotproducts.com/collections/guitar-xtenders

You can decide the amount of tuning change with less than a half tone, but it would require several of these in one guitar and it WILL be expensive. These things aren't cheap.

I have 2 guitars with these tuners and they are pretty damn nice, the system works perfectly...

They take up a lot of room too.

 

[assman]

Perhaps go for the simple solution: the tuners, like Adrian Legg.

it's not really an ergonomic solution since i can't operatively use it with right hand... although... well, i could mount some x-tender tuners behind a tune-matic. that should work, lol.
does anyone know what's the smallest change in tuning that can be achieved with hipshot xtenders?

 

[odibrom]

They take up a lot of room too.

Yes they do. If they are to be used at the lower string, they fit in an 6 or 7 in line Ibanez headstock. I think they'll fit well in 3+3 solution as all Xtender tuners, but one will have to ask Hipshot for special levers.

@assman I could try that at home within a few hours (no less than 6) but I bet it can do small changes.

For some extra money (about +50% I think), one can have the option for 3 different tunings per Xtender instead of just 2 of the regular one, again ask Hipshot.

Another possibility isto go for the Ratio tuners from Graphtech, which are manufactured so one can get precise changes per tuner's button rotation. This means a different tuner per string. It's an interesting concept that could be of some use for you... eventually.

I've also seen another brand with a detuning possibility for machine heads, but I can't remember at the moment which one, was it Schaller?

 

[Defyantly]

What type of bridge do you have on your guitar? Also are you willing to modify the bridge?

 

[assman]

I've also seen another brand with a detuning possibility for machine heads, but I can't remember at the moment which one, was it Schaller?

Sperzel has one, afaik, but it costs even more. i think i've seen something like partsland on a cheaper side, but with shipping to my farawayland i wouldn't really save much money.

@assman I could try that at home within a few hours (no less than 6) but I bet it can do small changes.

Wow, that'd be awesome, thanks a lot!

 

[assman]

What type of bridge do you have on your guitar? Also are you willing to modify the bridge?

absolutely shittiest possible one. it's danelectro thingy on squier jazzmaster baritone. god i hate it so much. i'm willing to crucify that sonofapitch.

 

[Defyantly]

Any pics? I have no idea what kind of bridge that is. My suggestions would be either take a standard hard tail and on the intonation screws you could weld and allen key (i.e. your lever) and learn the specific point in which the string intonates to the point you require. Or you could change your bridge out to individual saddles (like the ones used for multi-scales) and use headless individual bridges for the strings that need to be detuned and then learn the amount of turning.

 

[assman]

Any pics? I have no idea what kind of bridge that is. My suggestions would be either take a standard hard tail and on the intonation screws you could weld and allen key (i.e. your lever) and learn the specific point in which the string intonates to the point you require. Or you could change your bridge out to individual saddles (like the ones used for multi-scales) and use headless individual bridges for the strings that need to be detuned and then learn the amount of turning.

this one. i plan to replace it with roller t-o-m.

now i actually think it could be possible to mod a lever onto a fine-tuneable stoptail.. hmm. thanks for another idea!

 

[Defyantly]

No problem. Good luck

 

[odibrom]

So, I'm back to report my experiment with the Xtender with my Ibanez RG7421. The Xtender's lever has 2 positions, one for the up and one for the drop. This is tuned gerenraly for the up then one drops with the lever, but it could work the other way easily. I could go from a unison (the lever movement wound't do much diference) to a 3 full tone drop, maybe a perfect fifth depending on the string and tuning used. I have this Xtender in the 7th string and it is tuned from E4 to B1. I managed to get an F1 shown in the tuner (G-Force tuner), but the string was WAY too loose and unusable for my preferences.

So, there you go, you can use these for what you desire, it does 33 cents drops or what ever you want within the range of unison to 3 tone drop.

 

[Winspear]

Also curious where 33 came from? About +15 minor and -15 major works nicely. This is something I've been thinking about too so just thought you may be interested in where I'm going. I was already interested in/working towards having single string pickups to a multipin output. Using software and a midi pedalboard/control buttons on the guitar, it would be easy enough to apply +/-15c switches to each string to be switched with chording. The only thing I haven't got my head around (without another row of 3 or 4 'combination' switches) is how to do it when a chord has more than one third.
Like I said, I'm interested in single string processing anyway - but it would be an option to use it just for tuning then sum out to a traditional rig.
It's intense , but it's the most practical approach I can think of for on the fly playing. A tuning key option would only be useful to me for open tuning/more 'fixed barre' playing.

 

[odibrom]

Also curious where 33 came from? About +15 minor and -15 major works nicely. This is something I've been thinking about too so just thought you may be interested in where I'm going. I was already interested in/working towards having single string pickups to a multipin output. Using software and a midi pedalboard/control buttons on the guitar, it would be easy enough to apply +/-15c switches to each string to be switched with chording. The only thing I haven't got my head around (without another row of 3 or 4 'combination' switches) is how to do it when a chord has more than one third.
Like I said, I'm interested in single string processing anyway - but it would be an option to use it just for tuning then sum out to a traditional rig.
It's intense , but it's the most practical approach I can think of for on the fly playing. A tuning key option would only be useful to me for open tuning/more 'fixed barre' playing.

I'm not up to par with these temperaments, but what you're saying is about the same as what @assman wants 15+15. As I understand, he won't be tuning to 12 EDO, but as for good minor intervals (the +15) cents, then drop about 30 cents from this tuning temperament to get good 5th intervals... those +15 and -15 values are relative to the "central" 12 EDO note... or am I understanding this backwards / upside down / or simply wrong?

 

[ixlramp]

The Just Intonation thirds are:
JI minor third, 6/5, 316 cents. So +16c.
JI major third, 5/4, 386 cents. So -14c.

Also see http://sevenstring.org/threads/m3-ji-how-much-“color”.334388/#post-4971110
This tuning on a 12TET guitar is 2 fifths tunings interwoven and allows playing JI scales and chords.

 

[bostjan]

If you detune the string ~14 cents and only play the root key's major third on it, and then bump it up ~30 cents to play only the minor third, this could be a cool approach, but if you play any other notes on the string, it will sound very "out of tune." Unless you are only going to be strumming two specific chord shapes, I would recommend another approach. 19-EDO has great thirds without ruining the fifth. You can play anything diatonic in it and major and minor chords all sound much better in any key than they do in 12-EDO. If you don't stare at your own hands while playing, you don't even notice the extra few frets. The other option is to go with an unequal tuning, which works great if you tend to play in 4 to 6 keys a lot, but there will be at least two keys that end up sounding skunky.

 

[odibrom]

... why not going with FXs to achieve that? MIDI guitars or good Pitch Shifters / Harmonizers could eventually do the trick?...