How to get faster attack/response time from an amp?
- Thread starter Jacksonluvr636
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Shask
Well-Known Member
In the Fractal, lowering the B+ time, and lowering Supply sag can tighten up an amp. Turning off the preamp sag, and changing heater supply from AC to DC can also help.
Cant really change this in an amp though unless you add more capacitors to the power supply line.
sonoftheoldnorth
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Ghost notes? Struggling to conceptualise that sounding
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I 100% meant mod his actual amp haha.
Play one note, hear two.
GAMMOTH
Death Metal Brazil
Right on with using the clean booster for delivering a more massive signal to the amp front, regardless of pedal chain.
You may find it a little more "cleaner" and "flatter" sounding if you also use low capacitancy cables to avoid the muddy bass from high capacitance.
Another thing would be the low impedance cabinets. There is a very good reason that Ampeg and other bass cabinets uses 2 Ohms circuitry as this helps lower frequencies to "overcome" the impedance path more consistently with the higher frequencies.
However, there is an important point I am missing from this topic: if this Bogner has the option to change the rectification mode as well as the Dual Rectifier does, you may find that the Silicon Diode option gives you a response way quicker than the tube.
You may find it a little more "cleaner" and "flatter" sounding if you also use low capacitancy cables to avoid the muddy bass from high capacitance.
Another thing would be the low impedance cabinets. There is a very good reason that Ampeg and other bass cabinets uses 2 Ohms circuitry as this helps lower frequencies to "overcome" the impedance path more consistently with the higher frequencies.
However, there is an important point I am missing from this topic: if this Bogner has the option to change the rectification mode as well as the Dual Rectifier does, you may find that the Silicon Diode option gives you a response way quicker than the tube.
Bass amps use lower ohms partially because it gets more power without changing specs, not sure its overcoming an impedance path. @MaxOfMetal or @technomancer may be able to put it straight.
G_3_3_k_
Probably diddling an Oni
There are a few things I'd look at. Boost, bass control settings to shore up low end for what I'd call the 'tight' sound. Speaker is going to have some to do with it. Some amps are designed to work with specific speakers. The voltage you see returning from the expected load will affect how the amp responds since the amp was designed around a specific impedance curve. This shit is all over my head really, but listen to Kristian Kohle's recent interview with Steve Fryette. That guy is a wizard and his amps sound really good for a reason. The pre amp distortion character and saturation can affect perceived response time. As can the power section design. Couple a fuzzier or darker pre amp with a saggy power section and the amp will feel really slow. With the uberschall being a smoother distortion character, if the amp is anything like a recto in response like others have mentioned, its a saggy amp. If its fixed bias, like mentioned, run the tubes a little colder, and that should keep the power section from compressing as much. For modern high gain, power amp saturation is not really helpful or even wanted in some cases.
These are all big reasons why I mostly use modeling and solid state now after having owned some really killer high end amps on part with a Bogner. I've owned a Budda, Rivera Knucklehead Reverb, Randall Thrasher, Triple Rec, and a Diezel Herbert. My Waza has the fastest response time of any of the amps I've owned. Of the tube amps, the Knucklehead was the most saggy, and the Budda was the least saggy. Just didn't have enough gain. Of all the amps I've owned though, that one is probably the one I regret selling the most. Anyway, I've heard Ubers sound plenty tight. But a lot of that is the player controlling the amp. You like what you like. May be you like the tone of the Uber but not necessarily how responsive it is. At which point you'll have a decision to make. Can you live with the amp, or do you move it?
These are all big reasons why I mostly use modeling and solid state now after having owned some really killer high end amps on part with a Bogner. I've owned a Budda, Rivera Knucklehead Reverb, Randall Thrasher, Triple Rec, and a Diezel Herbert. My Waza has the fastest response time of any of the amps I've owned. Of the tube amps, the Knucklehead was the most saggy, and the Budda was the least saggy. Just didn't have enough gain. Of all the amps I've owned though, that one is probably the one I regret selling the most. Anyway, I've heard Ubers sound plenty tight. But a lot of that is the player controlling the amp. You like what you like. May be you like the tone of the Uber but not necessarily how responsive it is. At which point you'll have a decision to make. Can you live with the amp, or do you move it?
Mike
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Do you have any buffers in your rig? I've definitely noticed when using passive pickups, lots of cable between guitar & amp (especially mogami 2524) and all true bypass pedals, there is definitely a slower, darker, and more rounded feel/response due to the whole high impedance, high capacitance chain that's created.
A buffer or two in the signal chain can really help combat this.
A buffer or two in the signal chain can really help combat this.
Jacksonluvr636
Well-Known Member
Honestly that is pretty damn interesting, I'm in no position to talk to Bogner about a mod but this is something I will definitely keep in mind.
Just a general update and some replies. I did just get a st300 turbo tuner and I believe that has a buffer, need to make sure it's active or whatever.
Also I do have a couple of boost pedals on the way and will probably buy some greenbacks to swap the 75s in my Uberkab just due to the curiosity.
With that said I think some of my issue was user error. I was talking about this on another forum and someone touched a little more on the Metamorph control. It had dawned on me while I definitely swept it a bit, I never tried it completely off.
That kind of opened a whole new world on this amp between the way the morph interacts with the tight/fat switch and Honestly that is giving me what I was looking for.
The low end response is better/seems faster and tighter while also giving me a little more sag at the same time. I know it sounds contradicting but that's the best way I can explain it.
Now if I hit those open low/quick djenty type notes it gives me the perfect sag just like the Rev 2 Uber did BUT at the same time I have better control of the low end and response time.
Essentially user error. This amp is insane guys. While the core tone will always be there you can manipulate it to no end. Really need to spend some time with this one.
Not to mention boosts and eq coming.
G_3_3_k_
Probably diddling an Oni
Was thinking about trying one of these, but considering my biggest thing I dislike about amps is voltage sag, I think you just cured me of wanting to try this one out. Was my biggest complaint about the Rivera and the Recto. Saggy, squishy attack. Some people call it bounce. I want it to track like its pristine clean.
Jacksonluvr636
Well-Known Member
I think Engl is the brand for super tight clean death metal but I'm sure theres more.
owlexifry
Well-Known Member
everyone that's saying it's all about the power supply / B+, particularly the B+ filter caps - is 100% bang on.
anything else is bandaid bullshit.
yes you could decrease the required bass response in front of the amp with pedals and other shit to help the amp "catch up", but that's not solving the actual (perceived) 'problem'.
I know nothing about this amp, but given its a high gain bogner, i'd very surprised if it didn't already have a super robust power supply / filter cap network.
this is from the og uberschall:
with x2 470uF in series (to maximise voltage rating) and x2 of those in parallel (to double the capacitance) - makes up for a total 470uF.
that's fucken huge.
if this amp is anything like the og uberschall, well fuck, i don't think adding more filter capacitance is gonna change a lot, or help.
e.g.
for comparison, this is the SLO-100 B+ filter cap network:
x2 200uF in series, doubled in parallel --> that's 200uF total (B+1)
5150ii:
(5150 also has the same power supply):
x2 330uF in series, that's it. makes for a total 165uF filter capacitance (B+1)
ENGL powerball:
just x1 (500V) 220uF cap - 220uF total (B+1)
so if this amp is anything like the og uberschall, im gonna guess it's likely to have a more robust filter cap network than most other high gain amps out there.
anything else is bandaid bullshit.
yes you could decrease the required bass response in front of the amp with pedals and other shit to help the amp "catch up", but that's not solving the actual (perceived) 'problem'.
I know nothing about this amp, but given its a high gain bogner, i'd very surprised if it didn't already have a super robust power supply / filter cap network.
this is from the og uberschall:
with x2 470uF in series (to maximise voltage rating) and x2 of those in parallel (to double the capacitance) - makes up for a total 470uF.
that's fucken huge.
if this amp is anything like the og uberschall, well fuck, i don't think adding more filter capacitance is gonna change a lot, or help.
e.g.
for comparison, this is the SLO-100 B+ filter cap network:
x2 200uF in series, doubled in parallel --> that's 200uF total (B+1)
5150ii:
(5150 also has the same power supply):
x2 330uF in series, that's it. makes for a total 165uF filter capacitance (B+1)
ENGL powerball:
just x1 (500V) 220uF cap - 220uF total (B+1)
so if this amp is anything like the og uberschall, im gonna guess it's likely to have a more robust filter cap network than most other high gain amps out there.
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G_3_3_k_
Probably diddling an Oni
I'd be interested in seeing Diezel specs on this stuff. The Herbert was really 'fast'. But massive bottom and was darker/smoother in tone.
owlexifry
Well-Known Member
looks like Diezel schematics are heavily guarded. I can't find any that include the power supply section (only found a preamp for a VH4).
for a Herbert, all i could find was this low res gutshot:
can see there are x2 fat black filter caps? (no values visible).
and those big red WIMA film caps everywhere
(doesn't really get much better than this)if you can get a hig res gutshot, that could tell us more...
How Does the attack feel when the gate is unplugged and removed completely?
G_3_3_k_
Probably diddling an Oni
looks like Diezel schematics are heavily guarded. I can't find any that include the power supply section (only found a preamp for a VH4).
for a Herbert, all i could find was this low res gutshot:
can see there are x2 fat black filter caps? (no values visible).
and those big red WIMA film caps everywhere
if you can get a hig res gutshot, that could tell us more...
I'm surprised there aren't more gut shots of the internals on those amps. They are absolute works of art on the inside. I've never seen an amp so beautifully laid out on the inside.
