I feel like im asking a stupid question here

[soldierkahn]

I havent been able to find the cause, and it could very well be my tuner that is the problem, but when im intonating a guitar..... is there any reason that an open string would ring sharp when compared to the strings 12th fret harmonic? I would expect that they would ring the same pitch since theres no fretting going on to make the open note ring sharp when compared to the harmonic?

 

[tedtan]

The harmonics aren’t always in tune, especially if the string is old or damaged or has something stuck in the windings (fuzz or whatever); I’d try a new string.

 

[elkoki]

I’m guessing because when you play the string open you pick the string harder . And a harmonic would not ring out the same since technically you’re sort of blocking the string from ringing out ? This is why it’s not always a good a idea to tune with harmonics, and better to tune with the same pick attack that you use when you play .

What tuner you using to intonate ?

 

[JimF]

How does the open string sound compared to the string fretted at the 12th?

 

[Winspear]

12th fret harmonic should certainly be the same as Open, no matter how far off being intonated the guitar is - because no fretwires are involved indeed. I'm putting it down to uneven pick attack too, though a gunky string could do it I guess.. Be gentle and compare the sustain portion not the attack.
Worth noting 12/24 is the only harmonic that matches any pitch on the guitar exactly (though 7 and 19 are extremely close, 2 cents out)

 

[Suho]

Could it be that the bridge is so far in or out that where the 12th fret lies is not the true center of the string?

 

[Suho]

Winspear, if he is using the fret wire as his visual marker then it is relevant I would think.

 

[Winspear]

Winspear, if he is using the fret wire as his visual marker then it is relevant I would think.

If the intonation was that far out to be fretting a different harmonic by accident he'd know about it There are not very many spots on the guitar where clear harmonics can be played - it's not like the string is able to act like a 'fretless guitar' and be played anywhere to result in a pitch slightly off if the guideline fret was a bit out. The nearest playable harmonics to fret 12 are several frets away and entirely different pitches, there is no 'slightly out of tune octave' harmonic available

 

[JimboLodisC]

"12th fret" harmonic should be in tune, other parts of the string probably won't be, an open string vibrating freely should be predictable in that open and a halfway harmonic should be in tune, might be a problem with the string in this case

 

[tedtan]

The 12th fret harmonic is twice the pitch of the open string (an octave higher) because the harmonic node divides the string into to separate vibrating halves. If one side of the string is damaged or dirty, it won’t necessarily vibrate the same as the other half, pulling the pitch out of tune.

So I still say the most likely issue here is a bad string.

 

[Alberto7]

I mean, a plucked string will always go slightly sharp during the attack period if you pluck just a little too hard. This is especially true of the thicker strings since they carry more momentum and thus keep bending out of shape for longer after being plucked hard. It's part of the reason intonating the lower strings is generally harder and why people always say longer scale lengths intonate better, just because it's easier to make thicker strings go sharp and longer scale lengths allow for thinner string gauges. Like Tom said, tune and adjust on the sustain note, not the attack. Old, bad, or structurally compromised strings will also react weirdly when plucked, just because the material isn't even throughout the string anymore, which causes different sections of the string to react differently to tension stresses and strains from vibrations.

Worth pointing out is that I'm talking more from a theoretical than practical point of view. I've never actually had issues with intonation that couldn't be somehow resolved at the bridge, with a string change, or with a string gauge change.

 

[soldierkahn]

I’m guessing because when you play the string open you pick the string harder . And a harmonic would not ring out the same since technically you’re sort of blocking the string from ringing out ? This is why it’s not always a good a idea to tune with harmonics, and better to tune with the same pick attack that you use when you play .

What tuner you using to intonate ?

i thought about that but eliminated that possibility by ensuring that when i pick, i pick with a consistent strength multiple times and watch how much fluctuation there is, that way i know that when im hitting the harmonics, if im hitting them too hard, that fluctuation gets bigger and longer.... so if i accidentally hit it too hard, i can tell right away and then dismiss that test and try again. im dead focused on how many cents up it goes, then how long it takes to return to proper pitch.

i use the Boss Tu-3 pedal tuner, and also my onboard tuner in my Line 6 Spider V MKII

 

[soldierkahn]

How does the open string sound compared to the string fretted at the 12th?

very clear, no buzz, and not a cheap guitar either. right now the one in question is my 2015 PRS Holcomb i just picked up.

12th fret harmonic should certainly be the same as Open, no matter how far off being intonated the guitar is - because no fretwires are involved indeed. I'm putting it down to uneven pick attack too, though a gunky string could do it I guess.. Be gentle and compare the sustain portion not the attack.
Worth noting 12/24 is the only harmonic that matches any pitch on the guitar exactly (though 7 and 19 are extremely close, 2 cents out)

thats what i thought too and why this is puzzling me. i could understand if its a fretted note that rings different than the harmonic, but certainly a harmonic shouldnt go sharp if the open note isnt going sharp. i pick with a consistent strength multiple times and watch how much fluctuation there is, that way i know that when im hitting the harmonics, if im hitting them too hard, that fluctuation gets bigger and longer.... so if i accidentally hit it too hard, i can tell right away

intonation doesnt seem to be out of the ordinary IMO but this is the best close up i have (im on the road down in TX until Saturday)

 

[soldierkahn]

i should also note that I dont experience this same thing with my other two guitars

 

[Alberto7]

i should also note that I dont experience this same thing with my other two guitarsView attachment 124293

Sorry, I know this is off topic, but that KxK just stole my heart. Pretty sure I've seen it elsewhere recently (did you buy it off Pyramid in the last few months by any chance?) but right now it's doing things to me. Totally gorgeous.

 

[Purelojik]

very clear, no buzz, and not a cheap guitar either. right now the one in question is my 2015 PRS Holcomb i just picked up.



thats what i thought too and why this is puzzling me. i could understand if its a fretted note that rings different than the harmonic, but certainly a harmonic shouldnt go sharp if the open note isnt going sharp. i pick with a consistent strength multiple times and watch how much fluctuation there is, that way i know that when im hitting the harmonics, if im hitting them too hard, that fluctuation gets bigger and longer.... so if i accidentally hit it too hard, i can tell right away

intonation doesnt seem to be out of the ordinary IMO but this is the best close up i have (im on the road down in TX until Saturday)View attachment 124292

so im looking at the saddles and they're nearly maxed out. i had this issue recently with an old personal build I made back in 2016 and realized that I must have forgotten the scale length and didn't double check and actually placed the bridge 0.2in closer to the neck. I ended up using a shortened saddle from hipshot for the low E and it worked well, for the rest of the strings I just snipped the springs and it gave me the extra 1-2mm I needed for proper intonation.