Is FRFR the future for us? Anyone Using Matrix Gear with an Axe FX II?

[coreypla]

As of right now I have an Axe FX II and a Matrix GT1000FX 1U rack Power Amp. I am either recording direct via USB or jamming live through a crappy $100 Marshall 4x12 that I got used and abused at a local guitar shop.

I was wondering if any of you here use the Axe FX through a Matrix Rack Amp and then into a Matrix FRFR cabinet? I was thinking about making the leap, but I'm not sure if it's worth it enough for a bedroom player. I'm not jamming with anyone at the moment, no bands, no gigs, just doing my own music and writing and recording for fun.

If you are using a digital amp unit into a rack power amp and into a FRFR speaker cab....let me know what you think! I want to hear the verdict! Is it a step up or is it a huge game-changer?

 

[vick1000]

I tried lots of mid priced FRFR, but of course not a Matrix amp/cab. I personally don't like FRFR, so I am not a good judge, but you should be able to find all the info you need here...

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/forums/amps-and-cabs.37/

 

[mongey]

I didn't try a matrix frfr when I had my xl but did try a few different frfr options.

I didn't take to it. I prefer a "traditional "cab tone.

 

[Wolfhorsky]

I went frfr route a while ago. It was convienient, but not for me. I am kinda old and got used to the way of interaction between a proper guitar speaker, amp and my pants

 

[mnemonic]

There are people who are huge fans of it, lots of gear out there that can accomplish that. The Atomic CLR cabs are very popular on the axe fx forum.

I'm in a similar boat to you, mostly bedroom playing. I tried the frfr thing for a while, but settled on a solid state power amp and regular guitar cab for a couple reasons.

1.) no need to be sorting through hundreds of stock impulses and thousands of 3rd party impulses to find one I like. This was a real can of worms for me given that minute mic position changes can have significant effects on tone.

2.) different sound. The frfr route may be way more versatile (not stuck with just one cab sound) but impulses do sound different from guitar cab in the room as there is a close-mic'd cab sound baked-in. I personally prefer the cab in the room sound.


Either way I think an upgrade is in order, the cab is very important in your signal chain, almost as important as the amp. So a cheapo 412 (I assume an MG cab given the price) is usually gonna sound a lot worse than a quality cab.

If it's just an old beat up 1960 with well-broken-in speakers though, it may well sound better than a new cab.

 

[GunpointMetal]

If you want to get the most out of the features available in any modeler, FRFR is the way to go. I honestly haven't missed having a real cab on stage and my two 12" PA speakers move more than enough air (for me, of course). Running into a standard guitar cab is the equivalent to putting a fixed filter on your sound. No matter what you put into it, you're always limited to what the cabinet can put out.

 

[vick1000]

If you want to get the most out of the features available in any modeler, FRFR is the way to go. I honestly haven't missed having a real cab on stage and my two 12" PA speakers move more than enough air (for me, of course). Running into a standard guitar cab is the equivalent to putting a fixed filter on your sound. No matter what you put into it, you're always limited to what the cabinet can put out.

Funny, that's usually how to get the best tone from a FRFR setup, hi/lo filtering.

 

[Lemons]

I run my Axe II into a Mackie HD 1221, it's just as good as any poweramp/cab set up if you know your stuff. Vick1000 is right though, the best way to get a sound is to cut the useless muddy lows (that standard cabs don't produce) I also cut the highs at a certain point but that's a little less important to my ears. In my opinion there's no real benefit from a full range speaker, since you just end up cutting roughly what a cab does.

 

[Petar Bogdanov]

If you want to get the most out of the features available in any modeler, FRFR is the way to go. I honestly haven't missed having a real cab on stage and my two 12" PA speakers move more than enough air (for me, of course). Running into a standard guitar cab is the equivalent to putting a fixed filter on your sound. No matter what you put into it, you're always limited to what the cabinet can put out.

If you feel like they don't impact an irreversible sonic characteristic on your tone, you might be putting too much faith in the accuracy of PA speakers... They are a lot like guitar speakers, using the lightest cone and suspension possible.

 

[Casper777]

For bedroom playing, I must say that I got used to FRFR and I only play my Kemmper through my studio monitors... much more controlable than a cab and sounds great at ANY volume level.
And I can used my favorite cab/mic setup presets...

 

[GunpointMetal]

If you feel like they don't impact an irreversible sonic characteristic on your tone, you might be putting too much faith in the accuracy of PA speakers... They are a lot like guitar speakers, using the lightest cone and suspension possible.

Even "true" FRFR cabs have their own sound, of course. But if you wanted to switch from say a heavy drive tone with a Mesa cab sound to a sterile clean through a 1x12 cab sound, you can only get a guitar cab to sound so much like another speaker without imparting it's own sonics and limiting how far you can shape your tone. With a "FRFR" set-up if I want to have a synth tone, I can use all those available highs that you might cut from a standard guitar tone, or if I want to double something lower, I have the sonic space to do so. Also, in my experience (obviously, YMMV) FRFR is MUCH more consistent from room to room and system to system when playing live. That was one of the my main reasons for going in that direction. I was sick of dialing in a tone that sounded awesome in our rehearsal space and then getting to the venue and having my cab sound all boxy or farty or thin because the stage was a hollow box, or the room was long, narrow, and made out of cement, etc, etc. My PA/Modeler rig has (so far) sounded and "felt" pretty much exactly the same everywhere I've played.

 

[Drew]

Even "true" FRFR cabs have their own sound, of course. But if you wanted to switch from say a heavy drive tone with a Mesa cab sound to a sterile clean through a 1x12 cab sound, you can only get a guitar cab to sound so much like another speaker without imparting it's own sonics and limiting how far you can shape your tone. With a "FRFR" set-up if I want to have a synth tone, I can use all those available highs that you might cut from a standard guitar tone, or if I want to double something lower, I have the sonic space to do so. Also, in my experience (obviously, YMMV) FRFR is MUCH more consistent from room to room and system to system when playing live. That was one of the my main reasons for going in that direction. I was sick of dialing in a tone that sounded awesome in our rehearsal space and then getting to the venue and having my cab sound all boxy or farty or thin because the stage was a hollow box, or the room was long, narrow, and made out of cement, etc, etc. My PA/Modeler rig has (so far) sounded and "felt" pretty much exactly the same everywhere I've played.

While the FRFR setup offers you more flexibility in certain ways, it kind of doesn't in others, and I'm not sure I really agree with you here.

Basically, I've never played a FRFR setup I've actually liked. They all do a great job replicating the sound of a cranked-up recording of an amp and cab, but in my experience don't actually replicate the sound and feeling of being there in the room with one.

So, since the size and airspace of your FRFR cab itself isn't changing, while you might be able to swap between a clean tone that sounds like a really good recording of a blackface Fender 1x12 to a rhythm tone that sounds like a really good recording of a Triple Rectifier pushing an oversized 4x12, the way the cab actually resonates and pushes air and feels in the room with you never changes.

I honestly thought I just didn't like the AxeFX the first couple times I played one. The eye opener for me was the first time I played one running through a (Carvin - solid state, I believe, it was Cliff's own he'd brought down with an AxeFX running the then-latest firmware he was set to release the next day) power amp and the Mesa 2x12 cab I was using at the time. Suddenly the thing felt like a real amp to me, and I was kind of bowled over by it.

 

[TheKindred]

They all do a great job replicating the sound of a cranked-up recording of an amp and cab, but in my experience don't actually replicate the sound and feeling of being there in the room with one.

Man...Nailed how i feel about it 100% right there. I like the sound of live sound. It can be fun to just bedroom jam and have that polished/finished sound, but it always sounds wrong to me in a live venue. It almost seems like the band is miming along to their track even though they're playing it live.

 

[Wolfhorsky]

From my experience 300W FRFR didn't cut through the mix as well as 40W valve combo. For me FRFR sounds distant and not raw enough to enjoy playing. I like guitar speaker and power amp compression and interaction with my playing. It makes me more inspired.

 

[GunpointMetal]

Ultimately, you gotta use what feels right. The idea behind FRFR is to replicate a "finished" tone, so it makes sense if you have to have the tangibility of a guitar cab to play that it wouldn't feel right. I kinda "grew up" on modelers (been all digital since the Boss GT-6 minus a couple of years I fell in love with a Carvin X100B, and FRFR for the last 3-4 years) and have always done most of my practicing in headphones, so FRFR with a modeler and IEMs "feels" just fine to me. I have played lots of shows where people are super curious as to what my gear is until I tell them its a Line 6 board into a couple of middle-of-the-road prosumer PA speakers, then they gotta act like they didn't like it. Also done a few shows where people accused us of pantomiming to tracks because we're all dialed in and sound pretty "shiny" through a top-of-the-line FOH system. I'd rather sound good enough that people think they're listening to a recording, lol. But yeah, you gotta use what works for your ears and your feels. If I was going to join a hardcore band or something, I'd probably run my Helix into a 4x12 instead.

 

[GunpointMetal]

So, since the size and airspace of your FRFR cab itself isn't changing, while you might be able to swap between a clean tone that sounds like a really good recording of a blackface Fender 1x12 to a rhythm tone that sounds like a really good recording of a Triple Rectifier pushing an oversized 4x12, the way the cab actually resonates and pushes air and feels in the room with you never changes.

If Frequency is color palette, FRFR is like having one of those big boxes of crayons with all the weird names and guitar speakers are like having one of the small boxes with the basic colors and a few oddballs. Obviously, if all you ever need is black, white, brown, and red, there's no need for the big box, but if you like using burnt orange, chartreuse, or robin's egg blue, even occasionally, they're not in the small box. It's all personal preference, ultimately.

 

[Great Satan]

Power amp > cab.
Saves you having to deal with 'cab simulation' and those endless swathes of ir's when all you just wanna do is jam.
Hell even for home recording i'd prefer to mic something up than go silent/direct, you gotta be listening to your tone over monitors anyway so have it no louder than that (and use a di/reamp box if you don't want to pick up string noise when you're playing in the room).

 

[Milpitas Monster]

OP, I too am strictly bedroom minus the recording. Maybe my "rig logic" can help you out in some way. For my illustration, just substitute your fractal for my Kemper. First pic then signal chain:

Rig one: Kemper--->studio monitors. I am experimenting in stereo and learning midi.
Rig two: Kemper--->Fryette PS2--->Mesa cab or Front of amp pedals--->K--->PS2--->cab
Rig three: front of amp--->line in PS2, effects loop pedals--->PS2 effects loop---> cab
My "Luddite" Rig! No tweaking or thinking necessary!!

Many things are possible with the PS2. Hope this helps you or anyone else.
Good luck!

 

[MASS DEFECT]

Most of the people I know who had Matrix/AxeFx/FrFr went back to Power Amp and Cab or went back to using tube amps. They say that FrFr is awesome when you have a really good house sound guy otherwise cab and power amp is the best way.

To which I agree to. I have a Matrix 1600 myself and use it with a Genz Benz 2x12. But most of the time I enjoy plugging the AX8 thru my 5150's effects loop. That just slays.

 

[Elric]

I have both setups (and a tube rig) but:

AxeFx->Power Amp->Cab

Is the one that rules them all (prefer it over the tube amps, too). I do use a solid state power amp with the Axe's power amp modeling but the cab is the real deal. Thanks.