Is Progressive Metal the new Cock Rock?
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TedEH
Cromulent
The problem is that we can't go that route, because the genre is too big an umbrella, and there's no consensus as to who the heavy hitters really are. If you asked me for a "big four" of vaguely proggy metal, I'd have named bands like DTP, Gojira, Mesh, etc., since AAL / Tesseract / Periphery have always been, in my mind, a small niche subsection of wanky nonsense that resonates well with guitarists but that don't really carry a genre on their own (outside of calling it "djent", but everyone hates that word for stupid reasons). Don't get me wrong, some if it is very good niche wanky nonsense, but all the bands I've mentioned in this post lack the "big" part of qualifying for "big four" - just like anyone else in a niche genre. They're big in our relatively small world, but in the bigger cultural picture, they're not very big at all.
They call those other bands by fancy titles like "big four" because of their cultural impact - James Hetfield is a household name. Non-guitarists know who he is. I don't know the names of most of the members of any of the other bands I mentioned.
Microtonalist
Active Member
Personally I don't think it's an applicable comparison,
As others have mentioned, djent isn't popular. Sevenstring.org is part of the djent echo chamber, so to speak, so if you spend all your time on here, Periphery is the centre of the universe.
However, most of the people I meet in the real world (mostly guitarists of some kind, incidentally) haven't heard of any of it.
imo djent is nowhere near popular enough to be brutally killed off in a massive backlash against technical music. People will simply leave the echo chamber in search of something else.......like doom metal for instance.......
Hair metal was a legitimate way to make money, get famous, and get laid-none of which applies to prog metal
If technicality is the only link then I think the echo chamber has struck again, djent is FAR from being the only genre to include a lot of notes
Probably the most accomplished player I have ever met, or can think of for that matter, spends most of his time playing jigs and reels on an acoustic
So, is folk the new cock rock?
As others have mentioned, djent isn't popular. Sevenstring.org is part of the djent echo chamber, so to speak, so if you spend all your time on here, Periphery is the centre of the universe.
However, most of the people I meet in the real world (mostly guitarists of some kind, incidentally) haven't heard of any of it.
imo djent is nowhere near popular enough to be brutally killed off in a massive backlash against technical music. People will simply leave the echo chamber in search of something else.......like doom metal for instance.......
Hair metal was a legitimate way to make money, get famous, and get laid-none of which applies to prog metal
If technicality is the only link then I think the echo chamber has struck again, djent is FAR from being the only genre to include a lot of notes
Probably the most accomplished player I have ever met, or can think of for that matter, spends most of his time playing jigs and reels on an acoustic
So, is folk the new cock rock?
The whole hair metal boom, really, only lasted a few years. Periphery is famous for a (new) metal band. People don't care about music the way they used to, so there will never be an exact equivalent to butt rock again.
endmysuffering
I'm serious
Music has really become a commodity over the past decade I feel, I really witnessed it.
endmysuffering
I'm serious
If I had to weigh in with and alternative I'd probably say trap is the new cock rock. Prog metal is pretty much in the shadows.
Triple-J
the Experimetalist
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The only similarity I see is that it's lost it's sheen because there's a second (or is it the third?) wave of bands around who are competent but predictable which for better or worse has been the downfall of every genre anyway.
As for the Rolling Stone approved rock journalism legend that Grunge/alternative killed cock rock? I actually believe it's a three way split because......
1) the genre got stale
2) Grunge/Alt-rock was a nail in it's coffin
3) Metallica's Black album
The Black album deserves credit for killing hair metal as it was released around the same time as Nevermind and was a sales behemoth plus I've met a lot of older rockers who were into hair metal but found Black and moved towards that wave of early/mid 90's alt metal (Prong, FNM etc) or the Seattle bands.
As for the Rolling Stone approved rock journalism legend that Grunge/alternative killed cock rock? I actually believe it's a three way split because......
1) the genre got stale
2) Grunge/Alt-rock was a nail in it's coffin
3) Metallica's Black album
The Black album deserves credit for killing hair metal as it was released around the same time as Nevermind and was a sales behemoth plus I've met a lot of older rockers who were into hair metal but found Black and moved towards that wave of early/mid 90's alt metal (Prong, FNM etc) or the Seattle bands.
WishIwasfinnish
Well-Known Member
The point about prog rock/metal being full of rules I don't agree with. There are no rules about gear - CHON plays super analog equipment - and people like me play Axe Fxs and Strandbergs, so I'm definitely one of the prog metal gear "stereotypes" to some, but in my mind I'm looking for the most advanced and modern gear. Gear nerds do not equal prog metal musicians. There just happens to be an overlap, possibly due to a certain type of person (like myself) who likes to research heavily and nitpick and I guess that somehow correlates to a technical form of music that happens to be metal. That's as narrow of a box as I can possibly fit myself and other gear oriented prog musicians into.
However, obsession with technique and shredding is part of the genre, yes, but another part is experimentation. In that respect, prog metal is like jazz and modern classical music, breaking rules of genre through the blending of many influences and the addition of avant-garde elements. This is similar to prepared piano modern classical music a la John Cage or modern jazz that combines electronic influences with traditional jazz sounds.
I don't think the cock rock --> prog metal thing makes much sense to be honest. Sure some of the genre fits into that category, but like everything, there are many sides to the issue.
However, obsession with technique and shredding is part of the genre, yes, but another part is experimentation. In that respect, prog metal is like jazz and modern classical music, breaking rules of genre through the blending of many influences and the addition of avant-garde elements. This is similar to prepared piano modern classical music a la John Cage or modern jazz that combines electronic influences with traditional jazz sounds.
I don't think the cock rock --> prog metal thing makes much sense to be honest. Sure some of the genre fits into that category, but like everything, there are many sides to the issue.
Andless
Well-Known Member
^
THIS.
Revolution in music was over in the 80:s. Not even "rock n roll" is rock n roll anymore. The last death throes might have been grunge.
By end 80:s everything had been done. Extreme rock. Hip Hop. Extreme electronic music.
There has not been any revolutionary to anything in music since.
Except for the democratisation of the production means. I have the equipment needed for a professional grade production in my home (and so do a lot of the people on this board! Yay!). And distribution too is at least possible to arrange by yourself especially digitally.
Microtonalist
Active Member
Check my username and get back to me on that
On a serious note, though, I agree with you in context. But I don't entirely agree in a broader sense
imo we can think of this in terms of comfort zones, hair metal is pop music with added hair and a solo in the middle, no comfort zones were threatened in the making of 80s rock and surprise surprise there was some commercial success.
Prog metal intrudes on more comfort zones, probably lacks a marketable image, and is much less popular
I have seen terms like 'tasteful dissonance' thrown around on this very forum. What's that supposed to mean? Let me translate: "does not intrude on my personal comfort zone"
I'm nor directing any of this at anyone in particular, and I really hope no one takes offence, I literally do not care if your tastes differ from mine BUT if anyone here is expecting actual 'progression' in a format wherein they can tap their feet, hum melodies in the shower and describe all dissonance as 'tasteful' then I'm afraid they're doomed to a lifetime of waiting.
Microtonality is a really good example of this, it's a largely unexplored area, but what I've noticed about the various examples of works on YouTube (besides the absurdly low view count) is that the only songs/pieces with a positive reaction from the comments section are those that do not explore the possibilities and work within a largely standard framework.
To sum up what I'm saying here, ACTUAL progression is not cool, and it hasn't been since the 60s as far as I can see.
So it's not that progression can't happen, or isn't happening, it's that when it does the majority of people hate, misunderstand, or laugh at it
And what really worries me is that the more progressive a composition gets, the more people will hate it, misunderstand it, and laugh at it
If you want to see progression, the instructions are simple : burn your comfort zone into the ground and face the music like a man
/rant
Apologies for the above, I couldn't help myself
Andless
Well-Known Member
Mmmh.... I started a thrash metal band 1985:ish and felt at the time as on the frontier, playing harder and faster than (without ditching the musical aspect, mind you) previously heard music.
It felt new, it felt fresh. Although, in hindsight not as much as it felt right then.
For the last 20years 99% of what I can hear is a re-hash or mash-up of things already heard. It's not a coincidence why so many songs can be played with the same 4 chords, and I for one, am guilty as charged.
Although, the electronic scene (not EDM, I'm talking modulars etc here) has always had a more natural relationship with experimentalism, I think part of it comes from literally shaping sound from filtering and folding waves generated by electronic oscillators, which puts "sound" as a concept in a slightly different perspective.
Close, I'd still draw the line in the 80:s, but we can haggle and agree on the 70:s
If you want to see progression, the instructions are simple : burn your comfort zone into the ground and face the music like a man
I'd like for nothing more than this to be true, but it certainly will not be played on a mahogany 58' re-issue guitar.
If there is a new way, I'd be the first in line... but it'd better be new this time!
extendedsolo
Well-Known Member
While you are correct about the 'exact equivalent' part, I really think modern country gets really close to hair metal. Here are some of the parallels
Bad music generally speaking
Insane backup musicians
Cringe worthy overly sappy lyrics in slow songs
Most songs are about partying and/or finding a girl to get laid
Appeals to middle america largely
Male singers wear a ton of makeup
Lead singer is the least talented member of the band
I would actually say that hair metal was more masculine than modern country. I think every guy in modern country waxes his chest and sculpts his eyebrows. There was at least SOME balls in hair metal.
Prog is still closer to rock than it ever will be to jazz to my ears. It does have the jazz influence of adopting new sounds way more than rock ever will.
This, it's actually happening with EDM music right now. Nothing is going to kill EDM but it will eat itself similar to hair metal.
THIS X100000000. The revolution will never be in anything rock based for the forseeable future. The "revolution" is happening when an artist gets noticed on the internet and becomes huge. Guys like Chance the Rapper who released their first mixtape for free and are now blowing up. The revolution is happening in hip hop/rap/various forms of electronic music. It's similar to rock in the 50s and 60s where anyone can get in on the game, just make a song people can dance to. Rock is so far up its own butt at this point it's almost closer to jazz and classical where there is this sense of elitism and gatekeeping from the older generation. That world view is passed to younger generations that it's the only "real music". Why buy a guitar and spend hours working on it when I can steal a computer program and make beats easily almost right away? In a type of music where it's ok to blatantly use existing songs and call it a mashup or sample a part of a song. It's way more of a community feel that everything is at your fingertips, not this crap that rock has done where it's like "OH MAN HE RIPPED OFF TOM PETTY BETTER SUE THEM!".
To think a revolution is going to be caused by prog means you need to be exposed to more music.
People started moving to hardcore a few years ago now. I noticed all the kids shifted from wearing metalcore type merch to Desolated hoodies 18 months ago.
It's natural, and genres never really die out. People who get into new styles early also want something different sooner than everyone else, meanwhile you get people who get into things late and people who really love something and never drift away. I've been listening to Djent since Misha was doing demos back in the mid 2000s, so I was bored of it by the time the 32nd band with a pluralised name doing syncopated riffs came around in like 2011. Djent bands keep doing what you're doing, there's nothing wrong with it, but people go through phases of what they like and want to play. There's a reason this board isn't as active as it used to be.
It's natural, and genres never really die out. People who get into new styles early also want something different sooner than everyone else, meanwhile you get people who get into things late and people who really love something and never drift away. I've been listening to Djent since Misha was doing demos back in the mid 2000s, so I was bored of it by the time the 32nd band with a pluralised name doing syncopated riffs came around in like 2011. Djent bands keep doing what you're doing, there's nothing wrong with it, but people go through phases of what they like and want to play. There's a reason this board isn't as active as it used to be.
This is because you're stuck in the metal world. Hardcore is where all the innovation is going on because unlike metal which post 2000s became a genre kept alive by bedroom shut-ins who talk on forums, it's got a real underground and is a very social genre where people talk, meet and exchange ideas. The internet is paradoxically very good at shutting out new experiences, there is all the music in the world but unless someone says "check these guys out" you won't hear it. In 2017 word of mouth is more important than ever.
I'm not quite on point with these posts, because what I'm talking about is a move away from "modern" production as much as it is prog metal. I say modern but there's no reason why the tones people go for are modern rather than old. At this point using Slate kick 10 and podfarm or axefxs isn't modern, it's just one aesthetic to choose from. Something more natural or raw sounding isn't less modern, that's just ridiculous.
couverdure
No Gear Day
I don't hear anything innovative about those two bands, Norma Jean has already done this style of heavy music over a decade ago.
To the claims about prog metal becoming the new cock rock, I highly doubt that it's true because if it were the case, then bands like ERRA and Northlane would be as big as The Amity Affliction or Crown The Empire (Architects are getting there).
The nu metal revival that started around four years is arguably bigger and more commercial than the "technical-shred-000" style has been going around as long as Bulb's career. Though there are some crossover here and there, like Volumes and Issues but they sound drastically different from something like Monuments or After the Burial.
If you think Norma Jean sounds anything like Code Orange you need your ears checked.
GunpointMetal
Well-Known Member
If you think Norma Jean sounds anything like Code Orange you need your ears checked.
Chug Riff + dissonant sounds + Screaming
Code orange is just Ferret-style hardcore filtered through deathcore.
No.
What you two are saying is like hearing Death and going oh, Slayer did this already. Or someone who likes Country saying metal all sounds the same because it's all screaming and yelling and distortion. Chug riff + dissonant sounds + screaming also describes Slayer. And Gojira.
TedEH
Cromulent
I feel like there's several parallel conversations happening at the same time here, each centered around a different interpretation of what they want "x is the new y" to mean. Seems like some of us want our niche genre to be bigger than it really is. Some of us want a cultural revolution of some sort that they can associate themselves with. Some want music in general to branch out into more unexplored space.
I think this whole thread boils down to an exploration of the connections between music and identity politics, for lack of a better word for it. I think we all like music for music's sake, but we also tie our music to our picture of 'self', so understandably we want to make our music culturally relevant, because by association we would can then feel personally culturally relevant. If music is part of the self, and that music has a place in the world, then so does the self inherit that place in the world.
JKM777
Well-Known Member
I really do not understand the obsession with categorising music and labeling it as "Djent, Metal, Post Hardcore with a slice of progressive pirate ect,)
Music is art, the artist creates what the artist wants to create, I do not think most musicians create music to follow fashion, it really shouldn't matter what gear was used or it if only has 1 chord or is completely complex. Its subjective, you either like it or you do not. Music is one big family tree, almost all contemporary music can be traced back to blues. Let people make the music they want to and stop labeling it! Just enjoy it!
Music is art, the artist creates what the artist wants to create, I do not think most musicians create music to follow fashion, it really shouldn't matter what gear was used or it if only has 1 chord or is completely complex. Its subjective, you either like it or you do not. Music is one big family tree, almost all contemporary music can be traced back to blues. Let people make the music they want to and stop labeling it! Just enjoy it!
