Live Sound?

[wretchedspawn]

I remember from the last band that I was in that our guitarists always sounded different when gigging live. It has been quite a while since i played live and I didnt take up guitar until right after I left this band. I've also noticed that some bands sound great on CD but sound like a wall of noise live yet there are some bands that retain the great sound live. Why is that? Several of you dudes here on SS.org have great sounding bands and I was wondering if you could offer me some tips on how to keep live sets sounding good? Thanks!

 

[Christopher]

Seriously, there's as much to learn about how to sound good live as a band as there is how to play the guitar.

You can start by finding people that know what they're doing and asking a lot of questions.

My first tip: There are a lot of people out there that claim to be "soundmen", "engineers", and "PA guys" but that doesn't mean they know anything about Live Sound or Sound Reinforcement.

When you see a band that sounds good live, believe them.

 

[Cancer]

Yeah, this is a super multi-faceted question. There are so many variables, the short list being technique, gear, the room you're playing, the sound gear in that room, and the people running it.. I can give you a general piece of advice that has helped me, try to minimize, as much as humanly possible, the effects of other people of YOUR gear.

For example: if you have an amp or processor that allows you to go direct, use it. Or even pre-mixed cabs, use them instead of letting some numbnut (errr, I mean soundguy) haphazardly attempt to mike you. Some sound guys take great care in miking you some don't, unfortunately this means that your sound quality depends on who you use and where you are which basically spells inconsistency, which you want to try to avoid.

I've played with drummer who had premiked drums, why? ...consistency. That and it makes their setup much easier. They don't have to worry about whether the mikes in a certain venue are good or not, whether they get a bum mike or not, and if they do have a problem it easier for them to track it down and fix it since its their gear.

Part of the reason I stopped carrying cabinets and going direct was that, for me, cabinets became a major point of inconsistency, not only were they miked differently every time, but the tone would be different just based on where I was standing, so pointing out the source of the tone inconsistency was alot more difficult. By going direct, I KNOW what I'm giving the house sound,so if it sounds bad (re:different) I KNOW who to blame.

Barring that though, their are still a TON of other factors, stage experience being right up there.

 

[Drew]

For example: if you have an amp or processor that allows you to go direct, use it. Or even pre-mixed cabs, use them instead of letting some numbnut (errr, I mean soundguy) haphazardly attempt to mike you. Some sound guys take great care in miking you some don't, unfortunately this means that your sound quality depends on who you use and where you are which basically spells inconsistency, which you want to try to avoid.

See, this just goes to show how personal so much of this is.

I personally don't advocate going direct. That's not that going direct isn't necessarily a viable option, it's just psyphre and I have two different rigs and two diifferent experience sets.

He plays Line6, a company whose reputation is built almost entirely on their direct capabilities. He's done so for a while and (i would assume) is good at setting his rig up to sound good through a direct feed to the board.

Meanwhile, I play a Mesa combo, an amp that excels in a live situation where you can push it a little bit. I've also been a recording nut for years now, and I've spent a long time learning how to get a good mic'd tone. I'm not currently actively gigging, but every once in a while I sit in with a group I used to play with back where I grew up. I mic my own amp, and oftentimes bring my own mic. Given a couple minutes to sound check, I can get a tone through the speakers that I'm pretty happy with.

So, for psyphre, running direct plays to his strengths and the strengths of his gear. for me, it's a non-option - the direct out of my amp is fairly un-memorable, and I've got a couple great cab mics and a lot of experience using them. It'd be senseless for me to try to run direct, given this.

So, naturally, after this disclaimer, asking you to take anything I'm about to say as gospel is going to be kind of laughable. However, here's some observations over the years that I've found help.

-if you DO mic your amp, remember that you're used to hearing the "room" sound from approximately 6 feet above the ground and several feet off the amp, whereas a close-mic will be capturing the sound from an inch or so away from the speaker cone. If you're mic'ing up, before you do ANYTHING else tweak your EQ settings so you're happy with the sound coming diirectly out of your speakers, even if it means not liking the sound in the "room."

-as a general rule of thumb, midrange is your friend. It's the guitar's most dominant frequency, and while the scooped mid death metal tone may sound fuckin' brutal in your bedroom, add a bass guitar and cymbols to the mix and suddenly you get washed out as the bass overpowers your low end and the cymbals your high. If you want to scoop your mids, I suggest getting a graphic EQ or something, and trying to scoop the low mids while still leaving the high mids - this gives you that "dark" sound while still letting your guitar project a bit. I'd need to experiment a bit, but off the top of my head I'd guestimate 900hz-1khz is a goood starting point, coupled with a boost around 2khz.

-the obverse is true with gain. Gain compresses your signal and smooths out the dynamics, and the dynamics are what allows your guitar to cut through. Notice how a clean tone always cuts better than a distorted tone, even if they're the same volume? That's because the dynamic range of the clean tone is way biigger, so the peaks jump out a lot more. Back your gain off as far as you comfortably and practically can, and your guitar will sound "bigger."

-finally, a beer sitting on top of your amp has magical tonal voodooo properties that makes you sound way better.

 

[WayneCustom7]

Midrange

 

[Drew]

Now I feel long-winded.

 

[WayneCustom7]

Now I feel long-winded.

I could never, ever compete with you Drew, so I opted for the easy way out!

 

[Cancer]

In case I wasn't clear earlier. I am not, nor would I ever advocate one technique over another in terms of miking or going direct. Yes I personally like going direct, and my gear allows me to easily do it, but that doesn't mean (nor did I mean to imply) that miking is bad. Lots of players mike, and get great results. What I was saying, and perhaps I didn't make this clear earlier, is that in live situation, unless you have soundguys that you pay, you are not the only person in the "do-I-sound-good?" equation. Maybe you are running to much gain, or maybe you're not running enough midrange, or maybe (insert common cause here) but if you play live 5 times and sound 4 different ways, it's very hard to figure whats going on because the cause is not consistent. Having a consistent way of setting yourself live (whether by placing your own mic, or using a pre-miked cab, or going direct, or whatever) gives you a consistent starting point, which means you can trobleshoot if you're not getting the results you think you should be getting.

 

[wretchedspawn]

Thanks for the advice dudes. Greatly appreciated! Psyphre, since I use Line 6 as well I would like to know some more about running direct. How to do it, what to do, etc. Also Drew, please tell me more about how to properly mic my cab as I would like to try both.

I also have an old as dirt Arion MEQ-1 7 band equalizer pedal that I acquired from a friend. As I am quite new to equalizers I don't really know how to use it to its full efficiency. Is there a way to set it so that when soloing I will be heard over the rhythm guitar without having to turn the pedal on and off? So far I have been cutting the lows a little and boosting the mids and mid/high range a bit although I'm not really sure of exact settings I should have it at for a nice and evil death metal sound. The frequencies on it are 100, 200, 400, 800, 1.6K, & 3.2K.

Also, my pedal chain is in the following order: Tuner-Wah-Distortion-EQ
Is this fine how it is or is there another way to order it to get a better tone?

 

[Cancer]

Thanks for the advice dudes. Greatly appreciated! Psyphre, since I use Line 6 as well I would like to know some more about running direct. How to do it, what to do, etc. Also Drew, please tell me more about how to properly mic my cab as I would like to try both.

Spider 2's don't have a XLR out, so you'll have to run the headphone out into a direct box (Use a 1/4” TRS stereo-to-mono Y-adaptor cable). Any good soundguy will have one for you to use, but I'd carry my own just in case. If you're running a single speaker Spider I would highly recommend experimenting with miking though, small Spiders are incredibly focused sounding and I've heard some ridiculously good tones coming from a cranked mic'd Spider (good thing too since I couldn't really hear it onstage otherwise).

 

[Christopher]

The more information you can give us on the specifics of your band, the venues, you play, and the gear you (and the venue) is using the more we can help.

The variables are almost endless and most good sound tech's will treat different situations wildly different.

 

[wretchedspawn]

My band plays death metal heavily influenced by Nile and Cannibal Corpse. We havent played any venues with this band yet. as far as gear goes i use a SChecter C7 Blackjack Line 6 Spider II HD75 run through a LIne 6 412T 4x12 cab. My pedals are a Boss TU-2 chromatic tuner, Dunlop Hendrix Wah, Digitech Metal Master, and an Arion MEQ-1 equalizer. The other guitarist uses a SChecter C7 Hellraiser a Marshal MG100HDFX through a Marshall MG412 cab. His pedals are an Original Crybaby Wah, Digitech Metal Master, and a Boss GE-7 equalizer

 

[noodles]

I've heard plenty of bands that go direct and sound lousy as hell. I know why many are inclined to think that taking the cab and mic out of the equation make it less likely your tone will get fucked up, but this is forgetting that the soundman still has a gain and eq knobs. Never underestimate the ability of a shitty soundman to fuck up your sound.

FWIW, I try to dial in my tone hunched down in front of the cab. That way, I'm in the same position as the mic. To confirm what Drew said, you'd be amazed at how little bass and midrange the tone has at this point, since these frequencies aren't developing completely until up to six feet back from the cab. I am very careful with the treble and presence knobs on my amp. Also, I refrain from scooping, since you are removing frequencies from the signal, opting to increase bass and treble instead.

The secret weapon is the Mesa C90's in my cab. They don't have the midrange spike of most guitar speakers, and they are fairly dark. I can get a brutal metal rhythm tone with my mids at 11:00.

 

[Drew]

Also Drew, please tell me more about how to properly mic my cab as I would like to try both.

Trial and error, bro - if you've got the setup to do it, spend an afternoon experimenting with mic placement and recording different clips of yourself playing with different mic placements.

One word of caution - in an A/B test, your ear tends to prefer the brighter tone over the darker one, as the darker one sounds comparatively muddy. It's kind of an ear fatigue thing... it'd almost be worth recording all the clips one day, then taking notes about mic position and clips, and then listen back to them over the course of a week or so, in different order, and trying to get a sense of which clip really sounds "better" and not which seems loudest due to all that treble edginess.

I tend to gravitate towards a centimeter or so off the grill, and within an inch of the center of the cone, myself, but don't take that as a hard rule of thumb, just one of many jumping off points.

Psyphre, I do agree with you that one of the secrets to live tone is to minimize the variables out of your control. (the other, I'd argue, is midrange. )

 

[Christopher]

FWIW, I try to dial in my tone hunched down in front of the cab. That way, I'm in the same position as the mic. To confirm what Drew said, you'd be amazed at how little bass and midrange the tone has at this point, since these frequencies aren't developing completely until up to six feet back from the cab. I am very careful with the treble and presence knobs on my amp. Also, I refrain from scooping, since you are removing frequencies from the signal, opting to increase bass and treble instead.

Yep, I recommend the same thing. I sit right down on my ass right in front of my cab about 3 feet away and check it out. My band uses IEM's and they are the greatest tool ever to learn how to mic a cab and make it sound good fast. When all you get to listen to is what the mic hears you get the exact idea of what the crowd is hearing. You also have to live with that sound so it's great motivation to get it right.

How many people are in your band? What size venues are you playing? Are you providing the PA or is the venue? Do you use IEM's or wedges? At the typical venue do they mic everything or is it more of a vocal amp style PA where the stage volume carries everything?

 

[wretchedspawn]

Thanks dudes. There are 3 people in my band. 2 guitarists and a drummer. We supply the PA. What are IEM's and wedges? It was about half and half for the micing/stage volume for previously played shows.

 

[Christopher]

IEM's (In Ear Monitors) and wedges are types of monitors. They're what you have pointing back at you so that you can hear vocals or whatever.

So what do you have in your PA system?