Lt. Refuses to deploy to Iraq.

[Drew]

Real quick before I call it a night (early day at work tomorrow)-
While I do recognize the fact that he's an officer in the American military and has an obligation to go where he's ordered, at the same time in the prison abuse scandal in Iraq the soldiers' defense, which was promptly shot to holes, was "we were just following orders." This has probably been hit upon before, but obviously the "soldiers must follow orders" isn't as open and shut as it sounds at a glance.
That said, should he be court-marshalled? Well, rather, should he be convicted? Probably. On one hand, I'd like to be able to give the guy the option to serve his country elsewhere - Afghanistan comes to mind - but that starts a precident of allowing sodiers to choose where they'll be deployed. Obviously a problem. Obviously not going to fly.
By my feelings are, if I had enlisted after watching family members die in 9/11 (and let's be honest, had my brother been in one of those planes I'd have given it serious consideration) or something, and had then subsequently decided that there was no moral ground to defend an invasion of Iraq, a country with no Al-Quada connections that out government justified invading by a cosmic game of bait-and-switch, I'd do exactly what he did- I'd refuse to fight. If I was in a situation where I was ordered to fight and could not do so without sinning against my very conception of both myself as a person and my understanding of humanity's role in the universe, then I'd welcome the court-marshall as the lesser of two evils.
My two cents - I think the guy's an idiot for putting himself into the situation in the first place (though, admittedly, if you'd told anyone onthe 12th that 5 years down the road we'd be fighting rebels in Iraq in retribution knowing full well we knew there was no connection, they probably would not believe you), but if he honestly and truely believes it's wrong to fight, and if he's prepared to takle the court-marshall for that, well, you have to on some level admire him for being willing to pay for his mistakes and sacrifice himself, rather than sinning against his personal ethos.

Do you want someone fighting for you who really DOSN'T want to be fighting for you in the first place?

its better than no-one fighting for you

Highly debatable - most "friendly fire" deaths are alledgedly not so accidental.

 

[bostjan]

Who exactly are we fighting for over there?

 

[Drew]

Who exactly are we fighting for over there?

A true American would never question the aims of his democratically-elected government, Bostjan. Questioning breeds doubt, and doubt breeds sedition, and sedition breeds terror, and we are fighting a war on terror in Iraq. Are you a terrorist? Do you question your government's right to declare war on terrorists wherever they may be found? You're either with us or against us, Bostjan. We are fighting to force the Iraqi people to adopt a democratic government at gunpoint in Iraq, and if you're not with Democracy and with the United States of America and the red, white, and blue, then you're against us, and if you're against us, you're a terrorist. Are you a terrorist? If you're not, then don't question us, because only terrorists ask questions.

 

[eaeolian]

thats what i'm preachin'. Always bothered me when people mention "The Troops who are over in iraq defending our freedom!" I'm always like "How the hell is that defending our freedom?"

The really sad thing is, a lot of the troops seem to feel the same way.

 

[Dive-Baum]

So, the government is wrong, but he should just blindly go along with it because he signed up to fight?
He signed up to defend his country. Tell me how this war fits into that. He's one guy, so he's wrong. However, if he was hundreds, or even thousands of guys, then you can't simply sweep it under the rug.
This is a clear cut case of might makes right. The government has the might, so everyone thinks it's right. Bullshit.

But the bottom line is..he is a soldier. I agree with you man, might should not make right. But in this case it does. This is the will of the government, not necessarily the people, but the Prez is the commander in chief and when it comes to the military, with some exceptions, what he says goes. I don't like it. I think it sucks. But like I said before...he wasn't drafted...he enlisted and he was called on to fight. He has accepted the paychecks and now it is time to go and do his job. He wasn't called on for his opinion. Again, let me say I think the whole think absolutely sucks but when there is room for opinion in the military, it opens up a huge hole for people not doing what they have been called to do, knowing they can get away with it. Remember...there were people opposed to going into Europe for WWII and that war saved the world. I know this is not on the same scale but the way things are going, who knows what is next.

 

[Drew]

Remember...there were people opposed to going into Europe for WWII and that war saved the world. I know this is not on the same scale but the way things are going, who knows what is next.

"Saved the world" is a little strong - saving Europe from a German empire, sure, and saving the Jewish people from decimation in Europe, probably, but I'm pretty sure the world itself would have survived the war, had Hitler won.

Anyway, WWII from an American perspective wasn't about saving the Jews any more than the Civil War was about freeing the slaves - we tried to stay neutral, and entered the war only after Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese, making a stance of neutrality a little tough to hold onto. I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline, but we didn't declare war on Germany and Italy until a few weeks later, and my sense was largely that it was because we figured it would be kind of tough to fight one but not all three.

IT was only AFTER Germany was losing and we started coming across concentration camps in and around germany that Germany's attempted (and damn-near sucessfull) genocide against the Jewish people. Sure, that's what WWII is remembered for today, but our initial reasons for entering the war, and our reasons for declaring war on Germany, had nothing to do with it.

 

[Metal Ken]

A true American would never question the aims of his democratically-elected government, Bostjan. Questioning breeds doubt, and doubt breeds sedition, and sedition breeds terror, and we are fighting a war on terror in Iraq. Are you a terrorist? Do you question your government's right to declare war on terrorists wherever they may be found? You're either with us or against us, Bostjan. We are fighting to force the Iraqi people to adopt a democratic government at gunpoint in Iraq, and if you're not with Democracy and with the United States of America and the red, white, and blue, then you're against us, and if you're against us, you're a terrorist. Are you a terrorist? If you're not, then don't question us, because only terrorists ask questions.

or you could just cut the explaination... "You know what 'bostjan' spelled backwards is? TRRRRIST!"


As far as the world war II thing.. there's something a little bit different about us invading a country for no reason that stopping a power mad dictator from ruling all of europe and japan perhaps continuing to assault our western interests. We had no threat from Iraq. Hitler's scheme affected the very fabric of how the western world would be run.

 

[noodles]

This is the will of the government, not necessarily the people, but the Prez is the commander in chief and when it comes to the military, with some exceptions, what he says goes.

 

[Metal Ken]

Yeah, i thought we had a system of checks and balances for that?

 

[noodles]

Yeah, i thought we had a system of checks and balances for that?

Well, we did until The Decider came along.

 

[Metal Ken]

Staaaand by for decider, Salvation is his task! /priest.

 

[Dive-Baum]

Drew..I never even brought up the Jewish issue in WWII. That was definately not the reason we went over. The US couldn't have cared less at the time about their plight and most people didn't know about it. They had heard about "Crystal Night" but that was about it. And do you seriously think the Allies didn't save the world? Hitler would not have stopped until he ruled everything. Ease off the liberal idealology for a second and think about it. You are one of the most inteligent people on this board, I know you can do it.
Again let me say that I think the war is an attrocity and am completely agtainst it (In Iraq). BUT there is just no getting around that the Prez calls the shots millitarily speaking. If I'm not mistaken, the President can send troops anywhere he pleases without Congressional approval but to officiall "Go to war" and make a declaration, it requires Congress to vote. That is why we have had so many "Police Actions" through the years. Again to you guy who put the poop on my comments...I don't like what I said either but that is the way it works.

 

[bostjan]

Overthrowing a sovereign government is anything but a police action. Sorry.

 

[Dive-Baum]

No..Iraq is an actual war unless I am mistaken..I was refering to Vietnam and Korea..Both Police actions.

 

[noodles]

Again to you guy who put the poop on my comments...I don't like what I said either but that is the way it works.

I don't buy that "way the world works" bullshit. I vote, I write my Congressman and Senator, and I do what I can to get my opinion heard. If more people would have said no to the Bush BS, then he wouldn't be in office right now.

Fuck acceptance. I prefer getting pissed off.

 

[Dive-Baum]

I hear you Noodles. I think the same way. I never said things couldn't change. If enough people care about something and make their voices heard en masse then things can and sometimes do change. Just look at the Dubai Ports deal. For the record, I have my political representatives email addresses in outlook. But there is no denying the way things do, in fact, work. I am not saying they can't change. My parents were hippie protestors. They changed things. Honestly I have great doubt that our generation is well informed enough or cares enough to instill change. Ofcourse, until now, we have had no unifying moment...so things could change.

 

[Metal Ken]

If no one supports the president and all the troops, and the rest of the government protests, what the hell is he gonna do?

No..Iraq is an actual war unless I am mistaken..I was refering to Vietnam and Korea..Both Police actions.

If i recall, there's a senate vote authorizing use of military force, but not a true 'declaration of war'. Veitnam had a congressional act authorizing use of military force and Harry Truman invaded Korea under some United Nations laws.

 

[Metal Ken]

Update:
There's only been FIVE true declarations of war in american history:
War Of 1812
Mexican-American War (1846)
Spanish-American War (1898)
World War I (1917)
World War II (1941)

Here's another difference between the war in iraq and world war II, since we were discussing it:
ONly ONE House Member disagreed with the declaration of war Against japan.. the senate was 82-0.
Every other action in world war II was completely unanimous, 100% agreement from both the house and senate.

 

[bostjan]

Overthrowing a sovereign government is anything but a police action. Sorry.

^ As I said.

I'm sorry, but every war the US has been involved in on that list was a mistake, except World War II. World War I was about the end of imperialism, and we simply had nothing to do with that. The sinking of the Lusitania was all propaganda. The ship was full of weapons we were supplying to England, which we shouldn't have been doing.

I know it was a horrible war, and I have sympathy for all of the people who lost loved one or their homes in the war, but the USA really shouldn't have gotten involved in that one, and all of the stuff about the US saving everyone's butts in that war is crap, too. The Central Powers were already starting to cave in when we rushed in.

 

[Dive-Baum]

Well when you get right down to it...the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald was a bit of propaganda as well.

Caving in?? Are we talking about the same WWII? I think the Third Reich was doing pretty well for itself by D Day.