Magnet swapping, multiple magnets

[gnoll]

I had the idea of taking the side magnets from a Duncan Invader and putting them into a Duncan Distortion. In theory this should result in something closer to a Black Winter I believe. And... maybe I would try swapping the big ceramic magnet for an alnico 5 while I'm at it and see what happens.

BUT I have not cracked open an Invader before. And so there's some things I'm unsure about:

1) Are the side magnets the same size and shape as the non-magnetic filler things Duncan uses? So could I put them on the side if I wanted to use an alnico 5 magnet since it's smaller than the Distortion ceramic one? Or do I need to find something to fill in the gap underneath the alnico magnet?

2) Do I need to worry about magnet polarity? Since they're 3 magnets, do they need to be like, in the same/a certain order polarity wise or in relation to the pickup orientation, or doesn't it matter?

Oh and if somebody tried something like this I'd be curious to hear how it turned out.

 

[gnoll]

Ok I did some reading on my own.

It seems like if you mix alnico with ceramic the ceramics can degauss the alnico over time. I don't want that so I think I'll just stick with triple ceramic.

And also it seems like the magnets are supposed to repel each other.

 

[odibrom]

I had the idea of taking the side magnets from a Duncan Invader and putting them into a Duncan Distortion. In theory this should result in something closer to a Black Winter I believe. And... maybe I would try swapping the big ceramic magnet for an alnico 5 while I'm at it and see what happens.

BUT I have not cracked open an Invader before. And so there's some things I'm unsure about:

1) Are the side magnets the same size and shape as the non-magnetic filler things Duncan uses? So could I put them on the side if I wanted to use an alnico 5 magnet since it's smaller than the Distortion ceramic one? Or do I need to find something to fill in the gap underneath the alnico magnet?

2) Do I need to worry about magnet polarity? Since they're 3 magnets, do they need to be like, in the same/a certain order polarity wise or in relation to the pickup orientation, or doesn't it matter?

Oh and if somebody tried something like this I'd be curious to hear how it turned out.

I can only answer to question number 2: YES you MUST worry about polarity. Exactly how regarding your specific problem, I cannot say because I'm not that versed in the matter...

I also cannot say if a Ceramic+Alnico mix will un-magnetize (?) the Alnico over time, but all magnets loose strength over time (don't leave your guitars near speakers)...

Do note that the size of the magnet counts a lot for the final tone, as well as the magnet's quality. Alnico comes from 2 to 8 (strength scale, but not all levels area available, 6 and 7 as afar as I know) and that also interferes with the pickup's tones.

I think @bostjan knows a few more things about this as well as other forumites around... (sorry, I can't remember you all)

 

[gnoll]

I think as long as the triple magnets repel it's fine, because it'll go in a one pickup guitar so it doesn't risk being out of phase with another pickup anyway.

I guess I won't bother with ceramic + alnico but I could of course go just alnico 5 with normal spacers... But that would basically be just a JB so not what I'm after. Maybe a bigger alnico magnet could be interesting, but I don't have one...

 

[bostjan]

I can only answer to question number 2: YES you MUST worry about polarity. Exactly how regarding your specific problem, I cannot say because I'm not that versed in the matter...

I also cannot say if a Ceramic+Alnico mix will un-magnetize (?) the Alnico over time, but all magnets loose strength over time (don't leave your guitars near speakers)...

Do note that the size of the magnet counts a lot for the final tone, as well as the magnet's quality. Alnico comes from 2 to 8 (strength scale, but not all levels area available, 6 and 7 as afar as I know) and that also interferes with the pickup's tones.

I think @bostjan knows a few more things about this as well as other forumites around... (sorry, I can't remember you all)

I've only done a couple of magnet swaps.

Magnets are fun things, but kind of precarious, naturally, so there are a lot of things that can demagnetize "permanent" magnets, having an opposing much stronger magnet nearby is probably the #2 most common cause of that. AlNiCo magnets are also very difficult to re-magnetize once they've lost their strength, in case anyone was thinking just to "recharge" the magnets somehow.

I didn't know that the invader used three magnets. I'd assume all three are lined up with the same polarity; otherwise, I'm not sure how it'd work, but also, then why not just use a bigger magnet.

Does anyone have a photo of the invader with the baseplate removed at least?

 

[odibrom]

I think as long as the triple magnets repel it's fine, because it'll go in a one pickup guitar so it doesn't risk being out of phase with another pickup anyway.

I guess I won't bother with ceramic + alnico but I could of course go just alnico 5 with normal spacers... But that would basically be just a JB so not what I'm after. Maybe a bigger alnico magnet could be interesting, but I don't have one...

What I meant to say regarding worrying with the pickup's polarity, is that a Humbucker, afaik, has one north and one south polarized coils. When swapping magnets it's good to keep the coils with the same magnetic polarizing. You'll risk to have to think about how to rewire the whole guitar without unwanted phase issues. Do note that reversed phase wiring do deliver cool sounds, but not everyone likes those.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

You can run alnico mags with ceramic flankers. I've done it in the black winter with a5 and a8 mags . All of the magnets just have to have the same orientation.
Degaussing isn't a real problem for that situation ime.

 

[Excruciator]

1) Are the side magnets the same size and shape as the non-magnetic filler things Duncan uses? So could I put them on the side if I wanted to use an alnico 5 magnet since it's smaller than the Distortion ceramic one? Or do I need to find something to fill in the gap underneath the alnico magnet?

2) Do I need to worry about magnet polarity? Since they're 3 magnets, do they need to be like, in the same/a certain order polarity wise or in relation to the pickup orientation, or doesn't it matter?

Don't hold me to this, as it's been more than 10 years since I took an Invader apart. The magnets should be oriented ns-SN-ns (flank-CENTRE-flank) from what I recall, orientation definitely matters. Just take care to note how they are oriented when you remove them from the Invader. If you are using a 7 string Invader, don't be surprised if the flankers are just plastic spacers. I've dismantled two and both were like that. They were the same thickness (depth) as the main/central mag.

If it's a 6 string Invader I can't speak from experience, but I would expect the flankers should be the same thickness as the central mag as with the 7 string. If this is the case, you would face difficulties if you wanted to use a regular sized A5, which wouldn't typically be as thick. I suppose you'd have to source a thick A5 or shim the thinner one with wood or plastic. It would have to be snug fitting and tight between the baseplate and bobbins, a magnet with wiggle room is not something you want in your pickup.

As far as mixing alnico and ceramic in a pickup, it definitely can be done and there are several companies offering such pickups, but it can cause issues with degaussing if it's not done properly. Charge retention can even vary between different brands of magnets, even if they are ostensibly labelled a specific grade; not all magnets are made equal, especially alnico. Basically, you have to experiment. Personally, I wouldn't put a thin A5 with thick ceramic flankers in a high wind 44awg pickup, but it might turn out to be just what you want, so these various pains in the ass may be worth it to you.

EDIT: One more potential pain in the ass, since the Distortion is a single magnet pickup, it's possible you may not be able to insert flanker magnets without modifying the orientation of the conductor cables inside the pickup, which might need some solder work and more experimentation. I can't say for sure since I have no SD's to hand.

 

[odibrom]

Don't hold me to this, as it's been more than 10 years since I took an Invader apart. The magnets should be oriented ns-SN-ns (flank-CENTRE-flank) from what I recall, orientation definitely matters. Just take care to note how they are oriented when you remove them from the Invader. If you are using a 7 string Invader, don't be surprised if the flankers are just plastic spacers. I've dismantled two and both were like that. They were the same thickness (depth) as the main/central mag.

If it's a 6 string Invader I can't speak from experience, but I would expect the flankers should be the same thickness as the central mag as with the 7 string. If this is the case, you would face difficulties if you wanted to use a regular sized A5, which wouldn't typically be as thick. I suppose you'd have to source a thick A5 or shim the thinner one with wood or plastic. It would have to be snug fitting and tight between the baseplate and bobbins, a magnet with wiggle room is not something you want in your pickup.

As far as mixing alnico and ceramic in a pickup, it definitely can be done and there are several companies offering such pickups, but it can cause issues with degaussing if it's not done properly. Charge retention can even vary between different brands of magnets, even if they are ostensibly labelled a specific grade; not all magnets are made equal, especially alnico. Basically, you have to experiment. Personally, I wouldn't put a thin A5 with thick ceramic flankers in a high wind 44awg pickup, but it might turn out to be just what you want, so these various pains in the ass may be worth it to you.

EDIT: One more potential pain in the ass, since the Distortion is a single magnet pickup, it's possible you may not be able to insert flanker magnets without modifying the orientation of the conductor cables inside the pickup, which might need some solder work and more experimentation. I can't say for sure since I have no SD's to hand.

Just to say I love this post. Thank you.

 

[gnoll]

Excellent, thanks everybody!