Major Scale Positions

[ghost_of_karelia]

I heard someone mention something about "five major scale positions" or whatever so I decided to look it up. I tried to learn about it, but from what I can tell they're not actually the same scale, they're just in different parts of the neck played starting on a different note of the scale, surely if they start on a different note and end on a different note they're not really major as they don't gravitate towards the tonic, they're actually modal or whatever (don't quote me on my language use, I have no idea what I'm talking about).

Can someone please explain to me what these scale positions everyone's talking about are? I know the major scale and how to play it on the neck in any key, but only in one hand position/whatever you want to call it.

 

[wespaul]

It's the same scale in multiple positions. If your tonic is on the A string and you're playing the scale all the way up, and then all the way back down, you can cycle through the available notes on the low E string (the ones that are in that "position") and then come back up to the tonic on the A string. Nobody is saying you have to start every position from the low E string.

If you only know your major scale in one "position" then you should try playing the scale starting in one position, shift to another position, and then come back.

So instead of playing something like this (A major scale in 2 octaves, 1 "position"):

E--|-----------------------------------------4--5--
B--|-----------------------------------5--7--------
G--|--------------------------4--6--7--------------
D--|-----------------4--6--7-----------------------
A--|--------4--5--7--------------------------------
E--|--5--7-----------------------------------------

You could play something like this, where you shift between "positions":

E--|------------------------------------------------7--9--10--9--7------
B--|--------------------------------------7--9--10------------------10~
G--|-----------------------------6--7--9--------------------------------
D--|-----------------4--6--7--9-----------------------------------------
A--|--------4--5--7-----------------------------------------------------
E--|--5--7--------------------------------------------------------------

Notice in the second position, even though there were more notes on the high E string I was able to play, I always make sure to come back down to the tonic. That's the point of drilling major scale exercises. The point is to learn where all the notes are from the tonic, not just blanket "dots" in 5 positions.

You should then be able to play the major scale on a single string, starting with any note, go up, come back down, and then resolve back to your tonic. Move between positions, combine positions, and then be able to rip the scale off with your tonic starting on any string, without even thinking about what position you're in. Start on different scale degrees (this will ultimately help with modes, but you have to have a very, very firm understanding of the major scale to begin with). That can take awhile to embed inside you.

Then, once you're done with that, start harmonizing and playing the scale in dyads, triads, and then 7th chords/extensions and be able to rip them anywhere on the fretboard. You'll start recognizing interval relationships instead of "boxes" or "positions", and then you're ready to party.

 

[RevChristoph]

It is considered a berklee method. There are 5 positions you can play the scale in to effectively cover the whole neck. You aren't supposed to start on the bass note but the root of the key. For instance, if I am playing these 5 in g major, the first one will be in second position. The next one will be starting on the fourth string.

This is to teach the fretboard basically. The way I was taught to practice this was to start each position on the root note, play it up and back down then back to the root note. Then I would play the corresponding 7th arpeggio. This also helps with learning inversions. I would do this for the major, mixolydian, and dorian modes.

 

[ghost_of_karelia]

Then I would play the corresponding 7th arpeggio. This also helps with learning inversions. I would do this for the major, mixolydian, and dorian modes.

You completely lost me here. 7th arpeggios, inversions and why those particular modes have completely thrown me off.

From what I understand, if I play the shape starting on C and ending on C, I play the C major scale. If I then play from the second note of that shape and end on the second note, i.e. D to D while playing the same notes, I'm playing a modal scale of D (I can't be bothered to work out which one).

7th arpeggios are just mumbo jumbo to me.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

Let's simplify this a bit. For you, right now, there are two scales: major and harmonic minor. Why? Because 90% of music in the Western world follows this scheme. 10% is "modes & other". Study the 90%, not the 10%. What that means is if you see this…

GABDCGEFGAFCGEFGABGFACEGEAFGCAGFEFGC

… you're going to think C major. All of the notes there are in the key of C major, correct? If we do the same thing with G# instead of G…

G#ABDCG#EFG#AFCG#EFG#ABG#FACEG#EAFG#CAG#FEFG#C

… then it's A harmonic minor. I don't care where it starts or where it ends, because that's how it is, end of story. What this means for your original post is that "major scale starting in different positions" is still just a major scale. If you had a harmonic minor scale in different positions, it's harmonic minor. Nice and clear-cut.

Now that we have a framework to go by, here is how you tell the tonic of any key. I'm going to teach you key signatures, but since I'm waiting for the bus, I'll have to do it through text. I will only list the notes that are not "natural" so that you can see the pattern.

Nothing - C major
F# - G major
F# C# - D major
F# C# G# - A major
F# C# G# D# - E major
F# C# G# D# A# - B major
F# C# G# D# A# E# - F# major
F# C# G# D# A# E# B# - C# major

Notice that the last sharp in each of those sequences is the leading tone of that key. So in A major, we have F# C# G#, and G# is a half step below A. Let's do flat keys now.

B♭ - F major
B♭ E♭ - B♭major
B♭ E♭ A♭ - E♭ major
B♭ E♭ A♭ D♭ - A♭major
B♭ E♭ A♭ D♭ G♭ - D♭ major
B♭ E♭ A♭ D♭ G♭ C♭ - G♭ major
B♭ E♭ A♭ D♭ G♭ C♭ F♭- C♭ major

Notice that the last flat in each sequence is the fourth tone of the scale. So in B♭ Major, we have B♭ E♭. Here's the scale:

B♭ C D E♭ F G A

If I give you a jumble of notes now, you should be able to tell what you're dealing with.

C# D# A B E F# G#

Extract those sharps, put them in the order of our chart.

F# C# G# D#

If it all worked out, you got E major.

Now the minor keys. Like I said, we're only dealing with harmonic minor. The key signatures are the same, but they have an altered note, which I will parenthesize.

Nothing (G#) - A minor
F# (D#) - E minor
F# C# (A#) - B minor
F# C# G# (E#) - F# minor
F# C# G# D# (B#)- C# minor
F# C# G# D# A# (Fx) - G# minor
F# C# G# D# A# E# (Cx) - D# minor
F# C# G# D# A# E# B# (Gx) - A# minor

("x" indicates a double-sharp.)

B♭ (C#) - D minor
B♭ E♭ (F#) - G minor
B♭ E♭ A♭ (B&#9838 - C minor
B♭ E♭ A♭ D♭ (E&#9838 - F minor
B♭ E♭ A♭ D♭ G♭ (A&#9838 - B♭ minor
B♭ E♭ A♭ D♭ G♭ C♭ (D&#9838 - E♭ minor
B♭ E♭ A♭ D♭ G♭ C♭ F♭(G&#9838 - A♭ minor

You'll notice that the key signature sequence is the same as for the major keys, but then we have that altered note, which sometimes interferes with what's in the key signature. Without the altered note, it's natural minor. But since we're doing harmonic minor, we're looking for the altered version.

Anyway, a slew of notage:

E♭ D C B♭F# G A

Looking at the chart, you should see that the collection corresponds to B♭ E♭ (F#), which is G harmonic minor. Doesn't matter where it starts, doesn't matter where it ends, those are the notes so that's what it is.

Another one, a little trickier:

D♭ F♭ G E♭ C♭ A♭ B♭

When you check this ine out against the sequence, you get B♭ E♭ A♭ D♭ G… okay, G is natural, but there are other flat notes after it. Continuing on, C♭ and F♭. F♭ Is all the way at the end of the sequence, so add G to that collection and you get A♭ Minor.

 

[Stijnson]

That bus took a while huh Schecterwhore! But great stuff man, always nice when people take their time to write a proper answer and explanation.

As for the OP, you're not far off with with what you think. But as people above me mentioned, whether you start or end on a different note, if you play the same notes from a certain key, it will still be in that key.

You could play GFDCBABFGDEDEABD (total random notes), but only one key has all those notes in it, that is C Major. Change one (or more) of the notes, and it will be another key. Schecterwhore's Sharps and Flat list is a very useful way of recognising which scale you're playing.

As for the modal part of it, this is material for after. It will help you alot learning the Major scale thoroughly first and learning Intervals! Very important, because each of these modes (Major or Harmonic Minor modes) are all built of different intervals.

Also important, for someting to even become 'modal' it needs to be accompanied by its corresponding chords. Joe Satriani has a nice youtube lesson about it.

If we were to use your example from your 2nd post, playing for example the notes: CDEFGABC, with in the background a C Major chord being droned, or for simplicity, a C5 powerchord, it will sound very (C) Major.
Change the drone chord to a D5 or Dm chord and play the same notes, same order, it's going to sound different. In this case Dorian esque, although you will also need to emphasise the specific intervals that make the Dorian mode sound Dorian. Dorian has a Minor 3rd, a Major 6th and a Minor 7th. These are the intervals which distinguish it from a regular Major scale (a Major scale is btw the 1st mode, Ionian). Skipping these notes altogether will not result in it sounding like Dorian.

Anyway, my explanation is probably not very clear, everyone uses different methods to understand it. But start with the other things first, this will make venturing into modal playing alot easier later.

Here is the Satriani video

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

That bus took a while huh Schecterwhore!

LA traffic, man.

As for the modal part of it, this is material for after. It will help you alot learning the Major scale thoroughly first and learning Intervals! Very important, because each of these modes (Major or Harmonic Minor modes) are all built of different intervals.

Words of wisdom.

Also important, for someting to even become 'modal' it needs to be accompanied by its corresponding chords. Joe Satriani has a nice youtube lesson about it.

If we were to use your example from your 2nd post, playing for example the notes: CDEFGABC, with in the background a C Major chord being droned, or for simplicity, a C5 powerchord, it will sound very (C) Major.
Change the drone chord to a D5 or Dm chord and play the same notes, same order, it's going to sound different. In this case Dorian esque, although you will also need to emphasise the specific intervals that make the Dorian mode sound Dorian. Dorian has a Minor 3rd, a Major 6th and a Minor 7th. These are the intervals which distinguish it from a regular Major scale (a Major scale is btw the 1st mode, Ionian). Skipping these notes altogether will not result in it sounding like Dorian.

Close, but there are some issues here. While a drone note plus a melody is a hallmark of modal music (and I mean legit modal music - 9th century organum duplum and dhrupad singing), it does not apply to what a lot of guitarists (and bassists and pianists) call "modal" these days. Modal music has no chord progression; if you play it backwards, it works the same way as if you play it forwards. In tonal music, the chord progression dictates the direction of the music. It's a system of consequences: a chord of tension proceeds to a chord of resolution.

The issue arises when little Johnny sees ii V I and interprets it as "dorian mixolydian ionian". That's far more work than needs to be involved: it's a ii V I in a major key, and nothing more. If you want to "solo" over it, you can save yourself a lot of effort and stick to one scale rather than trying to think of three. And really, "ii V I" has never ever meant "dorian mixolydian ionian". You're far more likely to make a good note choice if you learn about chord tones than if you play some arbitrary scale against a chord. Granted, our music is inherited from a tradition that started at modality, then went toward tonality, and now we're in a period where the old has become the new, and we've mixed it with everything else under the sun. That said, the most intact study is in 18th century harmony. Strike modes from your vocabulary until you understand what enharmonic modulation is, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[redstone]

Not sure that's really on-topic but here's a more visual approach of the mode vs scale thing



Here's the major scale. We'll read it clockwise.

If you quickly rotate the picture and keep looking at the same tonic/little purple circle, you'll notice that you just transposed your scale. However, if you keep looking at the same frequency, the same pixels of the screen, you might be confused. Is it still the same picture ?

And it tricks our ears the same way, that's why untrained people generally think C lydian and C locrian are different scales, for example. However, lydian and locrian are two modes of that same major scale. Lydian starts at 3h, locrian at 9h on that pic.


Now here's the minor melodic scale. :



This scale isn't another mode of the major scale. No matter how much you rotate it, it cannot match the major scale pattern. Any mode of this scale cannot match any mode of the major scale. It's a totally new scale with 7 totally new modes... lydian b7, locrian b4 etc.

 

[Dirtdog]

Really the five positions can relate better to notes added onto the 5 pentatonic shapes
Meaning if you play your pentatonic shapes well you add notes around them to encompass the major scale

 

[RevChristoph]

Ok I'm not talking about playing modes or whatever, just playing the major scale in 5 different positions. Here is what I used to practice to learn the fretboard:

So I'm gonna start in G major. First I will play the seventh chords and inversions
with the bass note on the 6th string.

sort of looks like this in tab:

------------------|------------------|------------------|--------------
3---7---8---12---|-3---6----8----12-|-3---6--8----11--|--2--6---8----11
4---7---11--12---|-4---7---10---12--|-3---7--10---12--|--3--6---10--12-
4---5---9---12---|-3---5----9---12---|-3--5---8---12--|--3--5---8---11-
------------------|-------------------|------------------|--------------
3---7--10---14---|-3---7---10--13----|-3--6---10-13----|-3--6--9---13--


---------------------
--2--5--8--11------------
--3--6--9--12----------------
--2--5--8--11------------
---------------------
--3--6--9--12-----------



Ok so there you have G Major 7, G7, G minor 7, G m7b5, and G dim 7 and their inversions. Next I will play the G major scale in 5 positions with G major 7 Arpeggios ending on G each time. (5 positions because after the 5th one I have reached the octave and just repeat forms). Looks sort of like this:

---------------------------2-3-5-3-2------------------------------------
-----------------------3-5-----------5-3-------------------------------
-----------------2-4-5-------------------5-4-2--------------------------
-----------2-4-5-------------------------------5-4-2--------------------
-----2-3-5-------------------------------------------5-3-2-------------
-3-5-------------------------------------------------------5-3-2-------


--------------2-3-2------------------
------------3-------3---------------
----------4----------4--------------
------4-5--------------5-4-----------
--2-5----------------------5-2-------
3--------------------------------3-2-3


so there is the first position. Next I would start on the next G (5th fret d string) play up and down in G major then do the same with the arpeggio and so on. Sorry I don't have time this morning to write them all down but I can if there is enough interest.

So I would do all this up the neck. Then I would do the 7th chords again, but with the bass note on the 5th string, and do the scales in G mixolydian and play the dom 7 arpeggios.

Then the chords again with the bass note on the 4th string and do the scales in G dorian, with the minor 7 arpeggios.

After all that, I would do the whole thing in a new key (I usually go in 4ths or 5ths) so I would be in C major now until I go through all 12 keys. Doing this daily will REALLY help you learn the fretboard.

Hope this all explains it a little better. Also, You shouldnt use open strings for the scales or chords, if you have to it means you need to start in a different position.

 

[RevChristoph]

You completely lost me here. 7th arpeggios, inversions and why those particular modes have completely thrown me off.

.

Ok the reason I do these modes is because they are the most common in jazz guitar. I'm not a jazz master, but this is what jazz masters have taught me. Major, dorian, and mixolydian will cover most chords and changes in jazz music (major 7, minor 7 and dom 7 chords). Now if you want to be a super jazz master, then you could of course do these same exercises with melodic minor, whole tone scale, half diminished and full diminished scales, and lydian b7 and so on.

I only go through these to keep my mind sharp about the fretboard. I prefer pantera to john scofield, but I have to play both for my job so it helps.