Minimum break angle

[foreright]

Hi all,

I'm in the process of planning / starting a new 6-string build and have some questions regarding neck, or more specifically, headstock design. I've built a few straight headstock necks (ie. "Fender style" without a scarf / headstock angle) and aside from my last build where I went with a 5+2 tuner configuration, I've always needed to use string trees to maintain correct pressure over the nut on the longest two strings.

I'd like to go with a straight headstock for this build but with no string trees as I'm planning to do some carving / shaping in the area where string trees would need to go. See the drawing below:



This is a side profile of the headstock (obviously) with some sensible(ish) values for nut height and tuner hole height. As far as I can tell the "short" staggered Hipshot tuners are approx. 18mm above the base so that would in this instance mean that the hole for the longest string is 4mm above the surface leading to an approx. 3.5 degree break angle over the nut. This will likely be a reversed headstock and therefore the longest string will be the low-E so winding the string around the post a couple of times would lower it further but even with the string on the headstock face I'm looking at 5 degrees max which I don't think is enough to dispense with the string tree(s), or is it?

Clearly I can drop the entire headstock a couple of mm and get more angle (and that's pretty much what I did on my 5+2 build) but I think it's pretty ugly to do that.

TLDR; Is a 3.5 degree break angle over the nut enough to be able to dispense with a string tree or should just ditch this idea and go with an angled headstock? Is it even possible to design a 6-inline headstock with no trees?

 

[Gtan7]

depending on how high hole in tuner post is, i've used a washer between tuner body and back of headstock to drop the post hole further for just this reason, avoid string tree/retainer bar

 

[odibrom]

Ibanez guitars have tilted headstocks without string trees, as do many others.

Most brands that do tilted headstocks will go with 10⁰ to 14⁰ degrees angle. Less than 10⁰ doesn't give enough break angle for the strings and is prone to break easier... think Gibson... don't forget the volture behind the nut for reinforcement and strengthening of the joint. You can either carve or do a scarf-joint (?)...

Do not use staggered tuners as those are for Fender style headstocks.

 

[lost_horizon]

Do not use staggered tuners as those are for Fender style headstocks.

My Yamaha stock has Sperzel staggered tuners for 3L3R as does Gotoh have their HAPM (Height adjustable Pole Model) for both 3L3R and all the others.

My Yamaha YG has no string tree yet the same neck on an RGX has a string tree. Don't feel the difference between them.

The break angle is different for different thickness string, some like the high E,B feel like they are just gonna pop out at any time. I have a strat neck with no string tree and the headstock is flat it's just there is so much drop from the nut to the headstock it creates the angle. Some people put the headstock down so far you don't even need a truss rod cover.

 

[cardinal]

ESP Snappers have a slight headstock tilt:

 

[foreright]

Thanks guys - I'm aware how tilted back headstocks work as I've built a fair few Usually go with an 11-12 degree tilt FWIW. I just in this case don't want to get to the stringing up stage and find that there's not enough break angle and I have nowhere to install string trees - guess I could use a retainer bar behind the nut at that point but that's pretty ugly and "hacky". I might just go headless again - have some hardware on the way anyway to test out and could use that if it's not total crap.

I like the ESP Snapper pic above btw - that's quite a clever idea to (presumably) build the tilt into the headstock like that. Is that how they do the Eric Johnson strats as well?

 

[migstopheles]

locking nut?

 

[Drew]

Thanks guys - I'm aware how tilted back headstocks work as I've built a fair few Usually go with an 11-12 degree tilt FWIW. I just in this case don't want to get to the stringing up stage and find that there's not enough break angle and I have nowhere to install string trees - guess I could use a retainer bar behind the nut at that point but that's pretty ugly and "hacky". I might just go headless again - have some hardware on the way anyway to test out and could use that if it's not total crap.

I like the ESP Snapper pic above btw - that's quite a clever idea to (presumably) build the tilt into the headstock like that. Is that how they do the Eric Johnson strats as well?

Can't speak firsthand as I don't remember if I've ever played one, but my go-to guitar is a 1997 American Standard that a few months back I put locking Gotoh 510s on it with staggered heights, and for the last month I've been running it without the string trees. It works just fine - bending actually feels a hair easier and more consistent from string to string, which makes sense because there's a little less tension on the strings, and with 10s its not like tension is a huge concern.

EDIT - reading the description on the Fender site, without having inspected one in person, leads me to think they're doing the same thing, straight headstock but with staggered tuning pegs providing just enough string angle.

 

[dmlinger]

That Snapper headstock is bizarre from a manufacturing standpoint.

 

[spudmunkey]

I ina

That Snapper headstock is bizarre from a manufacturing standpoint.

I imagine it's the steepest tilt they can get out of a standard neck blank, and combined with the staggered tuners, it's enough that they don't need trees. It's an interesting compromise that gives them a cleaner headstock aesthetic, without the additional cost of a scarf joint of a thicker neck blank.

 

[dmlinger]

I ina

I imagine it's the steepest tilt they can get out of a standard neck blank, and combined with the staggered tuners, it's enough that they don't need trees. It's an interesting compromise that gives them a cleaner headstock aesthetic, without the additional cost of a scarf joint of a thicker neck blank.

I meant because of the way a traditional "Fender" neck is made...the back of the headstock and the heel are in plane with one another. The way they designed the Snapper headstock would require some jigs or 2-sided CNC operation. Both of which is extra work. All that to say I do really like the design. It's just surprising because they are mass produced.