OPINION: Randall Satan 50 or ENGL Savage 60? Or what?

[MAJ Meadows SF]

I've tried both big brothers of each. I'm being stupidly indecisive, so I figured I'd throw this out for some trusted opinions. I like both amps A LOT, but for somewhat different reasons, and I know the pluses and minuses. I'd rather stay with the 50-60w range then go back to 100w plus amps, but hey, I threw the Mesa on here because I've always wanted a blacked out dual rec with KT88s and KT66s to cause an earthquake. This poll isn't for serious touring needs, precision home recording in a mix, just my own jamming and amateur recording ventures. Been leaning Satan. Ideas? I always like to read other people's experiences.

 

[DudeManBrother]

What kind of music do you play (beyond just “metal”) and what type of qualities are you looking for, specifically, in your ideal amp?
Also, I could be wrong, but I don’t think a Dual Rec has an OT design with KT88 in mind. You can do KT77, but the 88 is a different beast all together.
Otherwise, in general: Savage is a beast but I’d probably grab the Satan.

 

[mnemonic]

I think the issue with KT88's is with regard to the power transformer. KT88's draw more current for the heaters (and maybe more idle current? Though not sure if that would be enough to matter) and the recto power transformer may or may not be spec'd for that much current draw. You can search the grailtone forum for mesa rep's opinions on Bob from Eurotubes and his integrated powertube sets.

I guess if you cook your power transformer, they're not really thaaat expensive in the grand scheme of things... and it would also be a good excuse to upgrade (crossgrade?) to a mercury magnetics drop in replacement or something, which probably has a higher current rating anyway.

 

[Vyn]

The Satan is pretty badass. Only reason I don't have one is that they are super expensive over here.

 

[MAJ Meadows SF]

The Satan is pretty badass. Only reason I don't have one is that they are super expensive over here.

Yeah, 1st world problems!!! I’ve heard some opinions about it both ways, but I dug the 120 watt. It’s not brutally bass heavy but I know Ola wanted a live/recording based amp to his specs. I’ve only read one person who couldn’t get it to work in a mix or live band well. Must not be good for that band’s sound.

 

[MAJ Meadows SF]

What kind of music do you play (beyond just “metal”) and what type of qualities are you looking for, specifically, in your ideal amp?
Also, I could be wrong, but I don’t think a Dual Rec has an OT design with KT88 in mind. You can do KT77, but the 88 is a different beast all together.
Otherwise, in general: Savage is a beast but I’d probably grab the Satan.

I think the issue with KT88's is with regard to the power transformer. KT88's draw more current for the heaters (and maybe more idle current? Though not sure if that would be enough to matter) and the recto power transformer may or may not be spec'd for that much current draw. You can search the grailtone forum for mesa rep's opinions on Bob from Eurotubes and his integrated powertube sets.

I guess if you cook your power transformer, they're not really thaaat expensive in the grand scheme of things... and it would also be a good excuse to upgrade (crossgrade?) to a mercury magnetics drop in replacement or something, which probably has a higher current rating anyway.

I’m looking for a balls out metal amp; my KSR Ares handles that and everything else. It’s my main; I’m just adding to the collection and gonna experiment in blending. Not worried about versatility from these two.

Yeah I’m with you guys on the KT88s, however, I’ve recently discovered from Eurotubes no less that you can set a Dual rec to 6L6 mode and run 2 KT88s and 2 KT66s. It was his answer to the request for teeth loosening breakdown chugs for slam bands and deathcore. For me, I’ve talked to the guys in Temple of Void and they say there is no substitute for the Mesa and I love their tone. I’m seeing them in a month so I’ll hopefully get to chat about it. I thought the transformers wouldn’t handle it but apparently this is a drop in retube because of the fixed bias. Recently someone had a Triple Rec entirely modded for all KT88s... should have grabbed it! I’m definitely not looking to cook the power transformer. I should mention either amp, Satan or Savage, will get rebiased and retubed with Tung Sol KT88s or 6550s. Or, I have started to look into KT77s since you mentioned it!

KT77s have intrigued me; I remember a friend using them in a Diezel and loved the tone. I might try to have my 5150 2x12 modded and biased for it. I’m one of those guys who gets bored with EL34 and 6L6 tubes. My Ares has 6550s which Kyle recommended over the KTs and it sounds utterly crushing and huge. Blew away the 5153 50w, as far as what my ears like, and I really enjoyed the EVH despite being so “Fenderized”.

 

[MAJ Meadows SF]

I’m also gonna throw this out there: despite both the Savage 60 and Satan 50 being modern metal amps, I’m going to shape disgusting and greasy OSDM tones from them, both of which can be done by their big brothers. I’ve been on a Dark Descent, 20 Buck Spin, Redefining Darkness records kick the last two years, and I’m turning to all my older favorites in general from 15-30 years ago. I know the Mesa will fit fine, so it’s an easy option to go with. But man, I’ve been squawking about getting a Satan on here, and almost did until two Savages popped up, and have always wanted. What the phvck to do!? Both if I could, but gotta be disciprined.

 

[DudeManBrother]

Man bone crushing KT88 has Bogner Uberschall Twin Jet written all over it IMO. I just got a VHT Pitbull Ultra Lead with KT88’s and it’s ungodly. I need to find my ABY box so I can run it with my Uber together; and bathe in all of the children’s tears as rainbows fall from the sky.

 

[DudeManBrother]

Also, maybe talk to Kyle about a Juno. That’s gonna be an EL34 amp, so he could probably set you up with KT77’s if you’re willing to spend the coin on a new amp. The sound clips I’ve heard have an Uberschall vibe; just menacing.

 

[MAJ Meadows SF]

Man bone crushing KT88 has Bogner Uberschall Twin Jet written all over it IMO. I just got a VHT Pitbull Ultra Lead with KT88’s and it’s ungodly. I need to find my ABY box so I can run it with my Uber together; and bathe in all of the children’s tears as rainbows fall from the sky.

There is literally nothing in that statement I do not like. \M/

 

[MAJ Meadows SF]

Also, maybe talk to Kyle about a Juno. That’s gonna be an EL34 amp, so he could probably set you up with KT77’s if you’re willing to spend the coin on a new amp. The sound clips I’ve heard have an Uberschall vibe; just menacing.

The Juno sounds amazing! I’ve been hoping someday to have him build a Gemini with KTs, but the Juno is definitey worth looking into. Yeah, I’ve thought about a Twin Jet too, but the one stopper is I’m trying to stay in the lower wattage and size realm. Mobility, space, and complimenting the Ares 6550 is the goal. There are some killer deals for the Twin Jet as of late, so it’s a possibility.

 

[DudeManBrother]

The Juno sounds amazing! I’ve been hoping someday to have him build a Gemini with KTs, but the Juno is definitey worth looking into. Yeah, I’ve thought about a Twin Jet too, but the one stopper is I’m trying to stay in the lower wattage and size realm. Mobility, space, and complimenting the Ares 6550 is the goal. There are some killer deals for the Twin Jet as of late, so it’s a possibility.

Yeah the TJ, well all Uberschall’s, is big and awkwardly heavy to one side, but man it’s a sound that is tough to beat for the right price. They’d definitely compliment each other as KT88 and 6550 are both the highest headroom glass used in guitar amplifiers.

 

[cmtd]

I ran kt77s in my triple rec for a while. They were cool, but I didn't really find that they gave much difference than running some el34s. I sold it and now am actually using an uberschall TJ. All that has been said above is true, it does sound good at bedroom volumes FWIW.

 

[KailM]

I've tried both big brothers of each. I'm being stupidly indecisive, so I figured I'd throw this out for some trusted opinions. I like both amps A LOT, but for somewhat different reasons, and I know the pluses and minuses. I'd rather stay with the 50-60w range then go back to 100w plus amps, but hey, I threw the Mesa on here because I've always wanted a blacked out dual rec with KT88s and KT66s to cause an earthquake. This poll isn't for serious touring needs, precision home recording in a mix, just my own jamming and amateur recording ventures. Been leaning Satan. Ideas? I always like to read other people's experiences.

You've probably been through this before, but have you tried an original 5150/6505 yet?

I have a 6505 head and an EVH 5153 50 watt head. As awesome as the EVH is, the 6505 eats it for lunch once you get some volume going. I hear ya on dialing out some of the "moderness" in favor of a more old school flavor.

I've been running mine with an MXR 10-band in the loop and I scoop a lot of the middle mids (500hz) and boost a little at 125 hz and 2khz. I've also been running the mids on the amp at 3/10 to reduce honkyness.

The result is a chug that can be felt a block away, and an upper mid grind that even scares me a little.

 

[Vyn]

You've probably been through this before, but have you tried an original 5150/6505 yet?

I have a 6505 head and an EVH 5153 50 watt head. As awesome as the EVH is, the 6505 eats it for lunch once you get some volume going. I hear ya on dialing out some of the "moderness" in favor of a more old school flavor.

I've been running mine with an MXR 10-band in the loop and I scoop a lot of the middle mids (500hz) and boost a little at 125 hz and 2khz. I've also been running the mids on the amp at 3/10 to reduce honkyness.

The result is a chug that can be felt a block away, and an upper mid grind that even scares me a little.

FWIW if the OP has some mulla left over after their amp purchase, grab one of those MXR 10-band EQ pedals. Absolute life saver.

 

[bnzboy]

I own a Satan (100w) and was fiddling around my AxeFx Savage patch the other night. I have never played an ENGL in person but I heard a lot of about not cutting through in a band mix. Satan is more flexible with its girth/grind/gain and sweep. I find the sweep knob is the most powerful control but just noticed it is missing from the 50w version but I am sure it is not a problem; it's nice to have but still very effective to tame/accentuate the mid.

 

[oracles]

I love the Savage, its one of my favourite amps of all time, but the Savage 60 is a bitter disappointment in comparison to its bigger, more powerful counterpart.

 

[GibsonVGuy]

I'd have to probably go with the ENGL Savage on this one. If I could afford one, I'd be owning one. Not the easiest amp to locate either. I asked about a Thunder on here recently because of budget restraints and all.

You couldn't go wrong with a Dual Rectifier with Kt88's either but I much prefer the two channel versions. They do not pop up often though.

I can't recommend any Randall products unless they have somehow stepped up the quality. I've had problems with about every one I've owned. I bought a Diavlo when they first came out and the footswitch wouldn't even switch channels...right out of the box. It had a muddy tone to it and I was overall pretty dissapointed in it. Especially for what I spent on it. When you don't have much, anything is expensive

 

[MAJ Meadows SF]

FWIW if the OP has some mulla left over after their amp purchase, grab one of those MXR 10-band EQ pedals. Absolute life saver.

Yeah I have no idea why I don’t already own one!

 

[MAJ Meadows SF]

You've probably been through this before, but have you tried an original 5150/6505 yet?

I have a 6505 head and an EVH 5153 50 watt head. As awesome as the EVH is, the 6505 eats it for lunch once you get some volume going. I hear ya on dialing out some of the "moderness" in favor of a more old school flavor.

I've been running mine with an MXR 10-band in the loop and I scoop a lot of the middle mids (500hz) and boost a little at 125 hz and 2khz. I've also been running the mids on the amp at 3/10 to reduce honkyness.

The result is a chug that can be felt a block away, and an upper mid grind that even scares me a little.

I have a 5150 2x12. It’s perfect for the kind of sound I’m going for, and just as everything you mentioned. Spot on. The MXR 10 band is a must purchase; I should already have one! I am starting to use the 5150 for OSDM; was used mostly for the Swedish buzzsaw DM sound, preciously. But after hearing Spectral Voice/Blood Incantation using the 5150s, and that tone is precisely what I am looking for in both 6 & 7 string guitars, I’ve swung back to it.

But I’m aso looking to add to the collection and tone shaping. Also, that damn combo amp is like 85lbs! I’ve heard the SATAN 50 is heavy too from the big ass transformers, and the Savage 60 isn’t small either, but that’s where I’m leaning towards. Size, power, weight, price zone; that’s all factoring in. Plus can you imagine all these amps triple tracked? Panned and center? Woof.