Pickup suggestions needed, but plenty of exclusions

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... If you only knew the power of the dark side of the force... I mean, the power of tone change a pot's value has... The difference is bigger than going from a Dimarzio Blaze to a D-Sonic 7 for example... in my experience. It really opens the spectrum of a guitar's tone, if higher value, and is WAY cheaper, but people like the marketing bullshit brands vomit to ID what a pickup sounds like. There is no magic nor fairy dust involved in pickup making, only parameters that are combined differently and they all interfere in the final result, even the pole-pieces material and shape/geometry/size interferes with the pickup's perceived tone and power.

Maybe, instead of looking for what brand makes the better pickup, one should investigate on how a pickup works, how it's build and how to tailor its tone and power.

Here are some thoughts of what I've found along the years (I'm no pickup maker).
1 - Over-wound pickups (means bigger DCR readings) tend to sound fatter, more compressed and less dynamic
2 - Wounding wire type/gauge and winding method plays a significant role in the tone: vintage (bigger gauge) wire tends to sound broader while more modern wire (thinner gauge) will tend to sound more focused. It's about the same with winding method, vintage style (scatter winding) will kind of sound broader, while modern winding may sound more focused.
3 - Magnet type and power plays a huge role in tone and overall power. More power isn't necessarily better and today's amps have a huge gain sweep to compensate lower output pickups (clearer sounding, in my opinion).
4 - Coil geometry (larger or taller) plays a considerable role in pickup's tone, larger coils will tend to sound broader while thinner might tend to sound surgical?...
5 - Paraffin bath time plays a significant role in the pickup's dynamics and tone.
6 - Baseplate material is important so it reflects more (or less) the magnetic field towards the strings, managing how a pickup reacts
7 - Pole piece material, shape and size are fine tuning tools, as is their setup (higher/lower or close/further away from the strings).
8 - Cover material interferes with the magnetic field if it is from a metal alloy. If it's plastic, it will keep the pickup's coil geometry about 1 or 2 mm further away from the strings when compared to uncovered pickups, which will then interfere with the pickup's dynamics, power and tone.

All this is valid for passive pickups... and this all goes through the filter that a pot is. The higher the pot's value, the more high end frequencies content will pass through it and into the amp, independently from the pot's position (open, closed or in between). In order to TRULY listen to a pickup, one should have a blower switch, which bypasses all electric components a guitar might have, shorting the pickup directly to the jack.

A high pass filter (in its different possibilities), acts mostly when the pot is not fully open, when rolling of a bit to get different dynamics with the amp, allowing more high end frequencies to pass through.

Active pickups will have the tome tailored with their internal/built in preamps. With these, battery voltage interferes a huge amount in the pickup's dynamics and pot's value might be not so relevant.

...............

With all these pickup changes OP have experimented with, my understanding is that the real problem is at the pot, which might be a bit too low value.

Remember that it's impossible to have exactly a 500k ohm pot, their industrial making oscillates in between 10 to 20% value margin. The difference is in the time it is taken to test the pots for their value. Cheaper pots will have larger margins while more expensive ones will have smaller ones. A 10% value margin means that a pot branded at 500k ohms might in fact measure from 450k to 550k ohms, which is a lot and justifies why some guitars sound better than other, where all the rest is exactly the same.

...............

Then there's the big sized pots against the small sized ones (diameter size and therefore the housing size). I bet few of us could ID which is which in a blind test (I probably wouldn't) where every other play variable is locked. I like to think that due to the resistance membrane travel of larger pots being bigger than on the smaller ones (bigger diameter therefore bigger perimeter/travel), the larger pots will have more definition, like going from a 4K monitor (larger pot) to a full HD monitor (smaller pot).

... Pickup Brand branded pots are re-branded from pot makers and have very thigh value margin, hence their higher price tag. Pickup brands sell pickups, not pots, so their marketing is aimed at that, at de-valuing the significant change a pot has in the pickup's overall tone, they'd sell less pickups this way... and the guitar market is a very small slice of the pot makers overall money pie. So small that they don't even bother in marketing...

...............

So, my suggestion is to:
1 - Try out different volume (and tone) pots and with different high pass filters installed.
2 - Retest (if possible) most of the previously tested out pickups
3 - Contact a pickup manufacturer near you and ask for your own custom pickup, speak from the heart about your needs and make sure he understands what your context is, like where other pickups have fell short, what your needs are and the rig you'll be using... and don't forget the pots' values...

Going custom in pickups is not that expensive if you don't go crazy with aesthetics and sizes.
 
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Mike

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Thanks for all the ideas and insight so far I really do appreciate it. So here's where I'm at, After speaking with Adam at Elysian pickups, I ended up ordering one of his Trident II/Hellfire hybrid sets to try out...but I also ordered a set of 1 meg pots to try with the Utopia/GS.
 
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Thanks for all the ideas and insight so far I really do appreciate it. So here's where I'm at, After speaking with Adam at Elysian pickups, I ended up ordering one of his Trident II/Hellfire hybrid sets to try out...but I also ordered a set of 1 meg pots to try with the Utopia/GS.
All my guitars are loaded with 1Mega ohm volume pots. It reeeeeeeeealy opens a guitar's voice.

Don't waste the opportunity to test all the previous pickups (or those possible except the actives) with that pot. You'll feel the a lot different either in sound/tone as well as in response.
 

TheWarAgainstTime

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I've only had the 7 string version, but the BKP Warpig seems like it would be up your alley. It's not particularly bassy like a lot of people think so much as it has a weight to the lower mids and a glassy attack. I've had it in a handful of guitars in a wide range of tunings and it always delivers :metal:

On the Dimarzio side, you might also dig the D-Sonic. It's broadly similar to the Crunch Lab, but less muffled and more aggressive. It also gives you the option to flip the bar coil in either direction for a different voice like the Crunch Lab. I'm also a big fan of the Gravity Storm neck, so the DS/GS pair would probably be killer in that guitar :idea:
 
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... If you only knew the power of the dark side of the force... I mean, the power of tone change a pot's value has... The difference is bigger than going from a Dimarzio Blaze to a D-Sonic 7 for example... in my experience. It really opens the spectrum of a guitar's tone, if higher value, and is WAY cheaper, but people like the marketing bullshit brands vomit to ID what a pickup sounds like. There is no magic nor fairy dust involved in pickup making, only parameters that are combined differently and they all interfere in the final result, even the pole-pieces material and shape/geometry/size interferes with the pickup's perceived tone and power.

Maybe, instead of looking for what brand makes the better pickup, one should investigate on how a pickup works, how it's build and how to tailor its tone and power.

Here are some thoughts of what I've found along the years (I'm no pickup maker).
1 - Over-wound pickups (means bigger DCR readings) tend to sound fatter, more compressed and less dynamic
2 - Wounding wire type/gauge and winding method plays a significant role in the tone: vintage (bigger gauge) wire tends to sound broader while more modern wire (thinner gauge) will tend to sound more focused. It's about the same with winding method, vintage style (scatter winding) will kind of sound broader, while modern winding may sound more focused.
3 - Magnet type and power plays a huge role in tone and overall power. More power isn't necessarily better and today's amps have a huge gain sweep to compensate lower output pickups (clearer sounding, in my opinion).
4 - Coil geometry (larger or taller) plays a considerable role in pickup's tone, larger coils will tend to sound broader while thinner might tend to sound surgical?...
5 - Paraffin bath time plays a significant role in the pickup's dynamics and tone.
6 - Baseplate material is important so it reflects more (or less) the magnetic field towards the strings, managing how a pickup reacts
7 - Pole piece material, shape and size are fine tuning tools, as is their setup (higher/lower or close/further away from the strings).
8 - Cover material interferes with the magnetic field if it is from a metal alloy. If it's plastic, it will keep the pickup's coil geometry about 1 or 2 mm further away from the strings when compared to uncovered pickups, which will then interfere with the pickup's dynamics, power and tone.

All this is valid for passive pickups... and this all goes through the filter that a pot is. The higher the pot's value, the more high end frequencies content will pass through it and into the amp, independently from the pot's position (open, closed or in between). In order to TRULY listen to a pickup, one should have a blower switch, which bypasses all electric components a guitar might have, shorting the pickup directly to the jack.

A high pass filter (in its different possibilities), acts mostly when the pot is not fully open, when rolling of a bit to get different dynamics with the amp, allowing more high end frequencies to pass through.

Active pickups will have the tome tailored with their internal/built in preamps. With these, battery voltage interferes a huge amount in the pickup's dynamics and pot's value might be not so relevant.

...............

With all these pickup changes OP have experimented with, my understanding is that the real problem is at the pot, which might be a bit too low value.

Remember that it's impossible to have exactly a 500k ohm pot, their industrial making oscillates in between 10 to 20% value margin. The difference is in the time it is taken to test the pots for their value. Cheaper pots will have larger margins while more expensive ones will have smaller ones. A 10% value margin means that a pot branded at 500k ohms might in fact measure from 450k to 550k ohms, which is a lot and justifies why some guitars sound better than other, where all the rest is exactly the same.

...............

Then there's the big sized pots against the small sized ones (diameter size and therefore the housing size). I bet few of us could ID which is which in a blind test (I probably wouldn't) where every other play variable is locked. I like to think that due to the resistance membrane travel of larger pots being bigger than on the smaller ones (bigger diameter therefore bigger perimeter/travel), the larger pots will have more definition, like going from a 4K monitor (larger pot) to a full HD monitor (smaller pot).

... Pickup Brand branded pots are re-branded from pot makers and have very thigh value margin, hence their higher price tag. Pickup brands sell pickups, not pots, so their marketing is aimed at that, at de-valuing the significant change a pot has in the pickup's overall tone, they'd sell less pickups this way... and the guitar market is a very small slice of the pot makers overall money pie. So small that they don't even bother in marketing...

...............

So, my suggestion is to:
1 - Try out different volume (and tone) pots and with different high pass filters installed.
2 - Retest (if possible) most of the previously tested out pickups
3 - Contact a pickup manufacturer near you and ask for your own custom pickup, speak from the heart about your needs and make sure he understands what your context is, like where other pickups have fell short, what your needs are and the rig you'll be using... and don't forget the pots' values...

Going custom in pickups is not that expensive if you don't go crazy with aesthetics and sizes.
Correction to this post: where it reads High Pass filter, should be read Treble Bleed, which is the correct term for this type of circuit. It is kind of a high pass filter, but not quite I guess and I'm not that versed in these terms, so here there we go...
 

lost_horizon

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First, we need to find out if his amp has "EQ" capabilities. I heard they are all the rage now....
Or one of these bad boys:
pzmj2yw4cop08upgthb0.jpg

I have tested over 100 pickups with the brief of 'this is what it would sound like if you just chucked it into a guitar' but with my String Pluckery 017 now I am putting in a tonestyler 10 Way tone pot because I just want to hear all the different combo's the tone knob can provide rather than change the pickups out again and again.

Good luck!!
 

Mike

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If you think eq pedals and eq sections of amps are all you need to change things related to a guitars output, tone, and overall feel, you probably don't belong in the pickups subforum ;)
 

SalsaWood

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I've only had the 7 string version, but the BKP Warpig seems like it would be up your alley. It's not particularly bassy like a lot of people think so much as it has a weight to the lower mids and a glassy attack. I've had it in a handful of guitars in a wide range of tunings and it always delivers.

I would agree, but add that it's not particularly bassy depending on the guitar it's in. In a basswood HSS super strat it's probably a great match. On the other hand a mahogany HH LP with them can have some ridiculous lows. The alnico models have better lows being more musical and even IMO, the ceramics have more bite and sparkle though. I use the ceramics in three of my guitars.
 

Sir_Shreddington

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I know you already ordered a couple pickups and some new pots, but I'll also offer a suggestion...MotorCity pickups. Wade can be a little flakey, but he he's an awesome dude and makes fantastic pickups. A friend had a great idea for a special order, so I told him to order 2 and I'll take one. I can't wait to hear what it sounds like. All the specs are custom. It's super close to a 59/custom hybrid, but with some other tweaking and scatter wound by Wade. It's either going to be brilliant or a sonic disaster. Can't wait!

But back on topic, his pickups are killer. I've tried the Detroiters, 2nd Degree Black Belts, Afwayu, Angel Dust, and one of his single coils (I can't remember the name). All were super dynamic and sounded remarkeble. His pickups sound a little more compressed than BK to my ears- so it might be what you're looking for.
 

Asdrael

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Paging @budda to talk about Vineham pickups.

I heard the Rampage set from them should be similar to a Nailbomb but at a much more reasonable cost. Maybe worth looking into (and past the actual horrid 90s website :p http://www.vineham.com/ )
 

budda

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Paging @budda to talk about Vineham pickups.

I heard the Rampage set from them should be similar to a Nailbomb but at a much more reasonable cost. Maybe worth looking into (and past the actual horrid 90s website :p http://www.vineham.com/ )
No experience with the Rampage, but im getting a Granite installed today in my prs S2 so I’ll make a clip of that :yesway:
 

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Update, so I received the 1meg pots yesterday and got them swapped out this morning. Unfortunately that was not a winner haha. They were brighter yes, but at the cost of adding some unpleasant hair and sizzle at the top end I did not care for. I messed around with amp and OD settings to try to balance the sound but wasn't happy with the results. I popped the 500k set back in, changed my amp and OD back to where they were and must say I the 500k pots are just a better fit with the Utopia/GS set. Oh well 🤷‍♂️
 

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I've considered the illuminator just because I enjoyed the crunch lab, but every demo I've listened to of it, to me really sounds like just a crunch lab on a diet lol. Lost a little bit of that thiccness.
That could be the funniest/coolest review of a pickup I've ever heard, lol.
 
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Update, so I received the 1meg pots yesterday and got them swapped out this morning. Unfortunately that was not a winner haha. They were brighter yes, but at the cost of adding some unpleasant hair and sizzle at the top end I did not care for. I messed around with amp and OD settings to try to balance the sound but wasn't happy with the results. I popped the 500k set back in, changed my amp and OD back to where they were and must say I the 500k pots are just a better fit with the Utopia/GS set. Oh well 🤷‍♂️
... I'm sorry it did not work for you...
 

gunch

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Going back through time most other Vai sig Dimarzios trend bright. Also try out a BKP Rebel Yell maybe
 

SalsaWood

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Yea, Vai's thing historically has always been pronounced high harmonic response which equates to very thin sounding pickups otherwise. I think now he's using the Gravity Storm models here and there, which sound a lot more musical yet still kind of lean on thin air in some respects.
 

gunch

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Also, OP, having done 2-3 years of (half assed mostly) research and asking around here about pickups, a single Elysian Trident II Goliath (ceramic mag and a5 slugs) Is most likely what I'm going with
 

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Hello folks,

I'm looking for some pickup suggestions for my DKMGT (Alder body, bolt on maple neck, rosewood board). Here's the kicker, no Fishman, EMG, Duncan, or DiMarzio's. I have no idea why, but this guitar has become my test bed and I have no joke installed roughly 20 different sets of pickups in this guitar in the last year. A few I've liked, most I hated lol.

Right now the absolute front runner and best pickup set to match this guitar is a DiMarzio Utopia bridge and a Gravity storm neck. I love damn near everything about the set other than the Utopia could just use a tad more brightness and bite (upper mids + treble). The output is great, nice and full tone, chunky low end, plenty of saturation (not dry) and nice clarity (but could be better).

The next best pickup set was the Crunch Lab/Liquifire, but same issues (need more bite & bright)

So on the flip side I tried a Nazgul/Sentient, Black Winter set, Distortion, D Activator, Evolution, none of them were quite right. Surely brighter and that modern upper mid thing going on, but lost the balls haha. Like the low mids sucked away thus causing feelings of emptiness and lack of push and punch.

I suppose that leaves me with Bare Knuckle to try (which I have never owned for any prolonged period of time nor extensively played) and other off-shoot, smaller builders.

I'm pretty bridge pickup focused, so whatever matched neck tends to be fine for me.

I know there's probably not a ton of ppl with Utopia experience, but If someone knows of essentially a brighter version of it, that'd be awesome.
Get some sort of graphic eq. It'll do exactly what you need for the price of one pickup.

I just used one to add some bass and treble to my emg 57/66tws. It's a night and day difference.
With pickups really only being a fixed eq filter, why not?

You can add:
thump below 100hz.
"Balls" between 100 and 1000hz
Tone down the upper mids
Add sparkle on the top.

Your signal chain will never know where the eq is coming from. Look at it like a pickup sound adjuster.

My discovery saved me from an active to passive swap.
 

gclef

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Update, so I received the 1meg pots yesterday and got them swapped out this morning. Unfortunately that was not a winner haha. They were brighter yes, but at the cost of adding some unpleasant hair and sizzle at the top end I did not care for. I messed around with amp and OD settings to try to balance the sound but wasn't happy with the results. I popped the 500k set back in, changed my amp and OD back to where they were and must say I the 500k pots are just a better fit with the Utopia/GS set. Oh well 🤷‍♂️
Pots do one thing most don't consider when swapping:

As a volume pot, they increase the hockey stick like response at the pickup's resonant peak. You all know what I'm talking about. That peak increase when you jump from 250 to 500, and much higher with a 1 Meg pot.
This kinda adds a bit of harshness.

1 Meg tone pots do allow for more high end to get thru.

A graphic (or even a parametric) eq can zero in on the frequencies that are lacking or strident.

The best example I can give is duncan full shreds. They are bright and tight with no bottom end. Trying adding bass at the eq. They become much fuller and less piercing.

Of course, that means you need to readjust afterwards or your other guitars will be mud city.

Pickups are merely a fixed eq set at the front of your chain. Why not tweak that some more with a pedal?
Your amp doesn't care where the eq comes from, just the end product.

Only the player cares.

Those who get it, know.
 


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