Please tell me someone on here has heard about "OCCUPY WALLSTREET"

[7 Strings of Hate]

I'm in the same boat as Rev, albeit in a different state and school. I attend an Ai school, you know - The Art Institutes which people are a "for profit" school which is a lie because EVERY college is a "for profit" university. If it's not then it's not a proper business and won't be around much longer. I'll be honest about the cost, it's about $120K for 3 years of school, if I remember correctly, and that's with housing I believe but again it's been a while since I've looked at numbers.

I'm 22, currently jobless (applying at the moment) and the loans are all in my name PLUS I've already attended community college to get an associate's degree while I had no clue what I wanted to do with my life.

That's somewhere in the region of $135K when said and done for all my educating, and the starting salary for animation/game designers? 40-70K a year, but that's still over the horizon, and doesn't take into account rent/groceries/car payments/insurance/gas, etc... so I'll be paying it off for a WHILE.

I don't think I've currently got it "easy" with all that looming overhead

In all fairness, you have to be being supported by your folks, which i would assume are people of means, other wise you would qualify for finical aid.

 

[Grand Moff Tim]

If it functioned solely as a pool it is one I don't see people opting out of later down the road either and the idea of a pool is that not everyone who pays actually uses it (which would be retarded after investing the money/time).

That actually happens all the time, and I agree, it is stupid. The MGIB was one of the main reasons I joined, so it always seemed silly to me that some people would pay into it and then never use it, but it does happen.

Based on what I'm reading the GI Bill covers a lot more than just college

That sorta depends on the version of the MGIB the servicemember signs up for. There's the one I signed up for, which sends that servicemember a check once a month while they're in school that they then use for tuition or housing or what the hell ever, at their discretion, as long as they're still in school and not failing their classes.

The newer version, commonly called the "Post 9/11 GI Bill," pays full tuition up to but not exceeding the cost of the most expensive public school in the state where the serviceman lives, plus they send a monthly stipend check based on the Cost of Living in the serviceman's area to help with things like rent and food.

More direct facts.

G.I. Bill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Here it actually says that this just adds to the benefits and the government adds money to it as well per so many dollars. So there you go it isn't completely funded by soldiers exclusively.

Fair deuce. Can't really argue with that, can I ? So it isn't entirely funded by servicemen, but it isn't entirely funded by government money, either. So there, that's all out in the open, and we can move on, haha.

 

[flint757]

Indeed

 

[The Reverend]

If we're going to stretch it that far, then everything every government employee has ever spent money on was paid for by tax dollars. The only way to avoid tax dollars paying for their education (or their food, skin mags, booze, cars, beanie babies, etc etc etc) would be for the government to stop paying its employees. Seems like stretching the point because you don't want to concede it.

I don't think it's very circular, or is stretching the point at all? If you say, "My schooling was NOT paid for by tax dollars," and the money did in fact, you have lied. If the world worked by your logic, then laundering money would be incredibly easy.

So my options are: work a second job, get more scholarships somehow, and just tighten my belt. All the while paying tuition that's nearly twice as much a year as I make working 40+ hours a week.

 

[Grand Moff Tim]

I don't think it's very circular, or is stretching the point at all? If you say, "My schooling was NOT paid for by tax dollars," and the money did in fact, you have lied. If the world worked by your logic, then laundering money would be incredibly easy.

I didn't say it was circular, first off.

Lied? Really? I suppose it could be viewed as my fault for not specifying that when I say "paid for by tax dollars" i mean "paid for by tax dollars earmarked for that specific purpose," and not "indirectly paid for by tax dollars because it's taken from a salary that's paid by the government." The money was earmarked for government employee salaries, and nothing more. After that, EVERYTHING the employees spend that money on is technically "paid for by tax dollars," but it's isn't anywhere near the same as tax dollars paying for, say, interstate highways or national parks. To me, that makes it seem like a bit of a stretch to say that their education is paid for by tax dollars in the (admittedly only implied) same way that tax dollars directly pay for other things, and to say it isn't isn't lying at all.

On the other hand, I have conceded that I was wrong about the extent to which it's paid for by servicemen rather than tax dollars after Flint pointed out that the gov't matches every $1 paid in with $8 of their own. However, that's being mistaken, not lying.

 

[flint757]

It was Bob who said circular.

 

[The Reverend]

I was replying to both you and bob123, hence the circular logic comment. It also took a very long time to send, making it look like I'm beating a dead horse.

I'm aware that some people can make it work. But I'm also forcibly reminded of the conservative response to Obama claiming that we all need help.

Come down to Crosby's Construction, in Chappell Hill, Texas, where I work 10-12 hour days 5-6 days a week(not counting the two hour drive time!) picking up debris from highways and tell me I need to pick up another fucking job. Tell me that I'm eligible for the Pell Grant (I'm not) and tell me that there's more scholarships I could get (my GPA is far from stellar now). Tell me I'm not doing enough, and that a student loan wasn't necessary to afford the extra $320 bill a month I pay on my payment plan.

I know that there are plenty of people who were able to pay their way through school. I know that there are plenty of people who are willfully trying to cheat the system. I am neither, and shit, I could use a fucking break, man.

 

[Grand Moff Tim]

Honestly, I would rather it were easier for people to get jobs that make a comfortable living wage without needing a degree to begin with, instead of making it easier for people to get a degree. I suppose that just seems to be the way of things in developed nations as their economies shift from production to service bases.

 

[flint757]

Honestly, I would rather it were easier for people to get jobs that make a comfortable living wage without needing a degree to begin with, instead of making it easier for people to get a degree. I suppose that just seems to be the way of things in developed nations as their economies shift from production to service bases.

This isn't entirely relevant to the thread, but according to the few business classes I have taken companies are starting to build/assemble in the States so they can respond better to demand and crisis situations.

There are also a descent amount of jobs in welding and other such things, however, without experience a degree is useful in such fields. Not necessarily a bachelor degree, but trade school or something like that.

We have definitely made a huge switch to service industry, but there are still jobs out there that don't require a degree. That being said, despite whether relevant to job or not, you seem to get paid more if you have one. I've been told countless times the knowledge isn't what the companies care about it is the commitment. All I can say is that is one expensive, pointless investment under that kind of mentality.

 

[bob123]

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not "glad" you are going through a difficult time, Im not "happy" that people have to pay for state level schools at all really. Thats one thing I would be all about, cut some defense spending, and put it into school tuition costs. A subsidy based program based on your grades would work quite nicely




"So my options are: work a second job, get more scholarships somehow, and just tighten my belt. All the while paying tuition that's nearly twice as much a year as I make working 40+ hours a week."

As I said, I've directly seen people fund their own way through college without loans, I've seen people completely fuck themselves over with loans. My wifes sister did NOT work at all during 5 years at U of M, got tuition and stafford loans for the entire thing... she now works for ~25$ an hour,
and pays about 75% of that in student loans.... for several years. It sucks, but it was ultimately her choice....


that said, why are you not eligable for a pell grant?

 

[flint757]

that said, why are you not eligable for a pell grant?

Not sure of his circumstance, but it is greatly exaggerated how easy they are to get even when you qualify.

 

[Randy]

Everything

With all due respect, I think you've got just as shitty an attitude as the supposed people you're condemning. All I keep hearing from you is "I did this" or "my sister did this" etc. like, because you were lucky/postioned well/intelligent enough then the same opportunities are available to everyone else. We're talking about decisions being made by high school aged people about their future; specifically referring to an age group where their life experience is so narrow, they can't entirely grasp what responsible planning for their future means.

I remember when I was in school. Always scored well into the 90s on my standardized tests but I flunked classes year after year because I couldn't be bothered with homework. I was lucky to graduate and, to be honest, I didn't give a shit whether or not I did. Now I know that was a mistake but a lot of good that does me at 26. Hindsight, 20/20, etc.

Do you think a kid is locked in enough to know from the day they walks into high school at 14 years old, they need to apply themselves, their future, their family and their way of life all depend on how they handle their next FOUR years? That's not even taking into account unpredictable bumps in the road like life issues, shitty teachers, etc. We'll just assume every kid either knows themselves or has parents/counselors who know them well enough to keep them on task, make sure they pick the right major, take the right high school courses, apply themselves well enough that they score well, fill out all the grant/scholarship applications and they're lucky enough to 'beat out' all of the other (literally millions of kids) going after the same money? I call bullshit. Some kids are lucky/smart enough to fit into that category but not all or not even most. Student loans are inevitable.

Likewise, you keep assaulting "liberal arts degree in uselessness" or similar jabs. For the most part, liberal arts degrees or General Studies degrees, etc. are a function of undecided students. I have lots of family, lots of friends that don't/didn't know what they wanted to do when they started college and two years in, still didn't know. Like, the overwhelming majority of them. Again, you're initially talking about kids and young adults. I've sat down with guidance counselors on multiple occasions, hammered and hammered away on the importance of just continuing education even if you don't know what you want to do and figure it out later. My larger point being, there are a lot of people out there who were not adequetly informed of what the real world job market is like and what realistic opportunities are out there. Even if they were told, I'm not sure how realistic it is that someone can grasp it without experiencing it...?

I have my own personal feelings on the state of academia and how it's primary goal is to stay self sustaining, and little to do with giving their students a practical path to jobs in the real world. Maybe "liberal arts degree in uselessness" shouldn't even be a something you can major in if it's so useless? Different argument for a different day, though.

Last point for now is the constant insulting of the Occupiers.

1. Not all Occupiers are 'hipsters students protesting the fact tax payers haven't given them a free education and guaranteed them a $1,000,000/yr job'. A lot of schools dishonestly pad their 'number of students who find employment after graduating', which is something even the most responsible would-be students look at. Likewise, a fair number of those protesters are intelligent and graduated with very practical degrees but the market wasn't what they were led to believe (imagine that, an institution which thrives on getting money from you for teaching you specific stuff not cluing you into how dead that market is... nope, no chance of a conflict there ) and they are saddled with mountains of debt (see previous paragraphs for where that comes from).

2. Not all Occupiers are even concerned with education at all. See all my previous posts on the subject.

3. Pointing out 'oh, they're using foreign this and foreign that' is silly. If the actual point is the lack of financial equality and the fact the number of decent jobs are lacking due to corporate-governmental leg-humping, it's redundant to assert that the only way to 'not hypocritically protest' is by not having any foreign/corporate produced materials with you. That's actually the point, you can't. You know, unless everyone shows up naked, with no signs and no cameras. Nope, no way that'll impact the likelihood of average people to turn out.

 

[bob123]

Randy, I lived in a trailer as a child, emancipated at 16, homeless for about 6 months before I pulled my head out of my ass. Im NOT speaking from generalities, Im NOT speaking from stuff "I've heard" or "Seen". Im speaking from DIRECT life experience.


Im well aware that not "everyone" in the OWS movement is a tweenage hipster. Im purely going by the largest demographic.

I was also speaking about the reports and claims they made as a unit, not on a well spoken, individual level. Your entire group is made up to support a common goal, that goal was "fiscal equality" and "down with capatilism". Either through a showing in the media, or popularity of certain individuals, this group seems to be predominantly 18-21 year olds without much clue or experience in their life. Have you seen their proposed plans? THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY ABSURD!



I make the jabs about liberal arts degrees, because people seem to correlate 'a degree' with 'a job'. People want whats in demand, a casual 4 year general studies is ultimately a waste of time and money usually. Its an EASY degree, thats why people do it. Thats why they dont get hired out of college to make reasonable livings either.


Theres also the matter of which college you attend. If you're too proud to take cheaper, transferable community college classes (my engineering program had a direct trasnfer over from several community colleges in the area, 2 years of cheap school, wind up getting the SAME degree...). My wifes sister would NOT go to ANY other school but U of M. It was the only option. She also sat on her ass and didnt work too much the whole time she went. I have no pity for her either...

 

[Randy]

Randy, I lived in a trailer as a child, emancipated at 16, homeless for about 6 months before I pulled my head out of my ass. Im NOT speaking from generalities, Im NOT speaking from stuff "I've heard" or "Seen". Im speaking from DIRECT life experience.

Well, credit where credit is due that you were able to pull that off but most people can't/don't.

I make the jabs about liberal arts degrees, because people seem to correlate 'a degree' with 'a job'. People want whats in demand, a casual 4 year general studies is ultimately a waste of time and money usually. Its an EASY degree, thats why people do it. Thats why they dont get hired out of college to make reasonable livings either.

And if somebody told them that when they applied for college, they probably wouldn't have done that. Again, if it's so useless then maybe it shouldn't be made available.

Theres also the matter of which college you attend. If you're too proud to take cheaper, transferable community college classes (my engineering program had a direct trasnfer over from several community colleges in the area, 2 years of cheap school, wind up getting the SAME degree...). My wifes sister would NOT go to ANY other school but U of M. It was the only option. She also sat on her ass and didnt work too much the whole time she went. I have no pity for her either...

Not all college credits are transferable. In my experience, I've seen 3 out of 3 times (my best friend, my girlfriend and then my next girlfriend) where zero or next to zero of their credits were transferable.

 

[Konfyouzd]

And if somebody told them that when they applied for college, they probably wouldn't have done that. Again, if it's so useless then maybe it shouldn't be made available.

True... And I see where you're coming from, but I also see where bob is coming from and I'm not sure that what was on the surface of his statement is the entirety of what he meant (although I haven't read the rest of his posts to confirm).

There are a LOT of degrees that are seemingly worthless--almost an excuse to just shut up parents that are pressuring you to go. That or there are a ton of people who simply have NO CLUE what the hell they wanna do so they just pick something they think they'll be able to make it through just to say they've done it.

The problem--in my eyes--is that the media sells to you that going to college and working hard is all you need to live the life you want. You see the commercials all day every day. And now we have places like ECPI giving people this undeserved sense of entitlement "I want classes *I* control... I don't wanna land some job; I want a career..."

Awesome ideals, but they're just that--ideals.

A lot of ppl get out and realize that just going to college didn't get them the career that afforded them the lifestyle they envisioned pre college.

However, that doesn't mean that a 4 year degree is worthless. It's a valid path for many. And if your plan is to go into certain fields of work it's a prerequisite. I just think a lot of ppl go for bullshit, or manage to make it w/o it and become jaded to the idea.

 

[Randy]

There are a LOT of degrees that are seemingly worthless--almost an excuse to just shut up parents that are pressuring you to go. That or there are a ton of people who simply have NO CLUE what the hell they wanna do so they just pick something they think they'll be able to make it through just to say they've done it.

This happens for a lot of reasons. Being a "full time student" was (might still be?) the only way to stay on your family's employee healthcare plan, and also helps in having them declare you dependent on their taxes. Also, guidance counselors tell you that if you don't know what to do, you get a 'general studies' degree because you need the basic credits in a specialized degree anyway, so when you do decide, you only have to take specialized classes part time. I've sat through that sales pitch before.

I don't think this "going to school just to go to school" thing has as much weight as you're giving it. And even in scenarios where that is happening, it's because, once again, students are being ill-prepared for the real world and they think they can live their high school years on repeat. That's not just a totally self-conceived concept on their part, that's a conclusion based on what they're being told. What I've been saying this whole time is, fix what they're being told.

 

[Konfyouzd]

Then how can they sell you the American dream? (Obviously I kid)

I honestly pretty much NEVER sat down with my guidance counselor except when the senior class was required to do so. By the time I met with him, though I'd already decided wht I wanted to do which I imagine gave me a bit of an advantage as far as being influenced by what the guidance counselor had to say. But I know of many people like you who were told to just get a general studies degree and decide what they wanted to do at the last minute. It didn't ever seem to work out very well bc general studies is like highschool 2.0 then you suddenly have to get serious in your junior year. I can't tell you how many people I knew that made it to junior year only to drop out when it was time to get real.

So in short, I agree that we need to change what the kids are being told. A large part of that falls on the parents though and the parents were sold the same dream. And the ones that ended up doing well for themselves will tell their kids to do the same in most cases. For me college wasn't an option unless I planned to move out upon graduating highschool. I wasn't really all that prepared for that so I took the college route (not to mention someone else was willing to pay so if I failed I really didn't "lose" anything).

Again, I haven't read this entire thread, but I think a great deal of responsibility falls on the parents first and foremost but that might just be a result of my own experiences. I've known a lot of my peers to be more influenced by what school officials tell them than what their parents say and I've always been the exact opposite so much of what the school tried to tell me I'd discussed with my parents well in advance.

At the same time, I don't think it'd hurt for guidance counselors to not give every kid the same song and dance about college. But what I'm wondering is if they do it to avoid catching hell from parents for telling their kid that college might not be the best way.

 

[Randy]

Well, I mean, the job of the guidance councilor is to fill the gap between what kids are missing between their own goals and responsible input from parents. You can't count on every kid knowing what they want to do, you can't count on every parent to have the best idea for the kids and (what I'd consider most likely) you can count a large percentage of kids being rebellious and not wanting to do what their parents did/tell them to do. Granted, you can't necessarily expect kids to follow what a councilor tells them either.

If I had my druthers, all high school kids would attend some vocational type courses where they work hands-on in different industries to get a better feel for what they like doing but they'd also be given very real and very blunt facts on what the opportunties and income are like if they go that route. This would be in addition to the basic education, obviously. In this scenario, I can see kids making better decisions for themselves, and would set them better to digest what their parents/peer/teachers tell them (good, bad or otherwise).

As it stands (in the US, at least) the high school experience has fuck-all to do with knowing what actually working a job is like.

 

[Konfyouzd]

That's fucking brilliant... It does kind of seem like we get an awful lot of time to make a decision that still ends up being like picking a career out of a catalog based on a description and hoping for the best.

 

[flint757]

For the life of me I don't know why schools and even parents discredit vocational schools and mentor type programs. Welding, as an example, is a great paying job.

We are fed the bullshit that college is the absolute end-all-to-be-all solution and I'll say unless you are lucky or incredibly talented most really high paying jobs will require some degree so in a way for the majority "the american dream" is probably only achievable through college with the appropriate drive and direction. Aimless college is only good for an entry level job that pays mediocre considering your debt for going in the first place.

I mean if you want to be a mechanic, driver, welder, carpenter, plumber, etc. (all jobs that pay fairly well and don't require bachelors degree) you'd either become an apprentice or get vocational training/certificates. This is something I rarely see parents or councilor's advocating. From what little I know Europe seems to do better with getting people lined up for jobs that they are appropriate for.

I think the most bizarre thing is that schools advocate military over vocational training and in many cases you are learning the same thing (not all or always obviously, military needs welders, mechanics and electrician's too).

I do agree that going to community college is a good idea as a first step, however, transferring gets complicated (especially if out of state). As an example if I went to community college locally and then tried to transfer to a UC school I wouldn't get in at all as transfers only happen locally like 99% of the time. If you are going out of state and need to live on campus then obviously community college won't work and yes obviously you can just keep it all local, but some schools suck bad enough that while yes you can get a job with your degree it may not be the one you wanted. Before anyone says it yes I know first world problems, but we only live once I'd think doing what we want for the rest of our lives is rather important.