Question: Entry vs Mid vs High-End Modelers for Gigging

[DrewH]

Usability wise Helix is a completely different planet than Axe where you basically have to fire up your PC to do real editing. The fast and intuitive UI is what sets Helix Floor apart from the rest of the pack IMHO. It's pretty expensive though and the Katanas aren't bad at all. If you just want to slap the ON/OFF switch and start chugging away, go with a Katana 100/212. At ~20kg it's still somewhat mobile and has enough firepower for small gigs.

I only hook up my axe to my PC for updates. I do most editing on the machine itself except when its getting an update and then I might screw around a bit there using the editor. I don't find editing on the axe interface to be much of a hinderance. Obviously faster using the PC but I never find myself wishing I had it hooked up to the PC most of the time.

It was never about about just turning it on and chugging. But, coming from tube amps, I wanted the experience of just turning some knobs and getting something I was happy with. Very possible on the axe. Not so much the Helix. Plus, I just feel the Helix lacks the depth and warmth of the axe. I think the recent update to the axe modeling software further distances itself from the Helix.

 

[ExplorerMike]

Haven’t seen anyone mention the PodGo yet. A lot of people overlook that unit since it’s not officially a Helix line product, but all of the sounds in the PodGo are identical to the Helix line. It just doesn’t have the horsepower the Helix stuff does. I’ve been gigging a PodGo since 2021 and it’s been awesome. I knew I didn’t need the horsepower and complicated routings of the Helix/AxeFX stuff and tried the PodGo. Couldn’t be happier and it’s gotten a ton of compliments on its sounds.

The other two guys in my bands using modelers are both running Kempers. They are both in guitar and I’m playing bass if that matters. But even for guitar stuff I find the PodGo to be everything I’d ever use. And it’s a nice light form factor.

 

[hensh!n]

Buy nice or buy twice.

This is worth repeating. Almost every time I've tried to "save money" on gear related purchases by selecting something that is "good enough", it almost always costs me more in the long run.

FM3 for around a grand.

HX Stomp for around $700.

PodGo for around $500.

IK Tonex for $400.

I wouldn't suggest spending less. But whatever works for you.

There is also the Quad Cortex and Kemper that are in the same ballpark depending on the model. But I have little to no experience with either products, with the Kemper being a "profiler" of existing rigs and a Quad Cortex being sort of a hybrid modeler/profiler. The Tonex falls into the "profiler" camp as well, but I've at least played that and think it sounds great for the price.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

This is worth repeating. Almost every time I've tried to "save money" on gear related purchases by selecting something that is "good enough", it almost always costs me more in the long run.

FM3 for around a grand.

HX Stomp for around $700.

PodGo for around $500.

IK Tonex for $400.

I wouldn't suggest spending less. But whatever works for you.

There is also the Quad Cortex and Kemper that are in the same ballpark depending on the model. But I have little to no experience with either products, with the Kemper being a "profiler" of existing rigs and a Quad Cortex being sort of a hybrid modeler/profiler. The Tonex falls into the "profiler" camp as well, but I've at least played that and think it sounds great for the price.

I couldn't agree more with this sentiment. I would never encourage someone to spend more than they can afford, but it invariably pays off to carefully think through what will meet your requirements and then patiently save up if necessary.

The cheaper Fractal and Helix models are not cheap, but offer very good value for money. The more premium models are objectively better (in terms of features and processing power, rather than sound quality / tone), but offer diminishing returns. Even the most expensive modellers are extremely cheap when compared to a collection of tube amps + effects pedals.

I imagine plenty of people who own an Axe FX III or FM9 don't really utilise the additional features / power that they have over an FM3. I'm sure lots of people also do, but plenty will have splashed out on a more premium model without even looking into whether it's likely to benefit them. I almost fell into that trap myself, but decided it made sense to get an FM3 in the first instance, as I could always upgrade if I find I'm lacking something (not the case so far though).

 

[DoctorStoner]

It is funny that I spent a few years playing through a ValveKing with just an overdrive and noise gate out front, then a JSX for a couple years with just an overdrive and noise gate out front. Completely happy with 2 basic channels and no real effects. Now - to save weight - I'm looking at modelers that cost roughly the same as a new JSX with hundreds of amps and effects built in!

 

[will_shred]

Helix is terrible for people migrating from tube amps into a first serious modeler. You spend more time tweaking settings than you do playing guitar and it's a steep learning curve on that unit. Plus, it's the worst sounding, by far, of the major modelers.

I couldn't disagree more. Having tried pretty much all the major modelers, the Helix is probably my favorite. It BY FAR has the best user interface. Fractal IMO is probably the least user friendly, and Quad Cortex is in the middle. And really, as far as sound quality goes, I don't think they're all that different (I KNOW I MIGHT CATCH HEAT FOR THIS BUT ITS JUST MY OPINION OKAY?). They all sound good, but they all sound like digital modelers. T00B amps still sound better, so with that in mind I'm gonna choose the unit that I feel is the best value and best interface. For me that would be the Helix. Also, having torn apart a few Helix's I can say that they are very well made and clearly designed with professional use in mind. I've also had an HX FX on my board for the last 5 years that's never given me a single issue, just does its job.

Also, Kemper has been completely usurped by the Quad Cortex.

 

[TheBolivianSniper]

I'm trying to get an FM9 since I'm sick of my guitar amp and pedal setup taking up so much space, plus it's heavy and I have a bass gig and no bass amp/cab.

How does it sound for bass and how important is it to get the latest version? Just worried about updates and paying for something that won't sound up to its potential bc I didn't go all the way. I'd like it to be a comprehensive solution for at least the years I don't have money to upgrade again.

 

[projectjetfire]

Ive been using the Helix LT for aggggges now. I do think what is telling is that there has been 2/3/4 versions maybe now AxeFXs since the 2010, the Helix has had one (noting different form factors of the rack, the LT etc) since 2015. The hardware is potentially up to the job for another 2/3 years as its the software inside that makes the difference . I am finding it interesting that no one is mentioning Plugins here. You can get Nueral DSPs to try and what not, but even the QC hasnt got the big name plug ins (Bea, Gojira etc) on it so that says a fair bit too. However, I agree with @will_shred they all kinda sound the same really, but customer service wise, Line 6 has been excellent from what ive seen. Id keep hold my LT even if I went back to tubes, as the reverbs, delays etc are all really cool and its got midi built, stereo panning etc etc. The big thing really which hasnt been mentioned is the IR verses stock cabs on both of these. Thats a whole different conversation.

What I would say is, I personally wouldnt want to gig anything like a Peavey Vypr, Line 6 spider etc. Ive heard countless tales of people using them at home, taking them to practices and when the drummer and bassist start, their guitar disappears into the mix. Id rather go with a small, cheaper head and 4 x 12 than do a digital modeller amp like that....

 

[projectjetfire]

This may be worth a look at too, @Guitarjon always does great videos. he has LOADS of gear and proper amps (including H&K stuff, which I am a fan of), he does need to sort out the time stamp on this video though, the last 2 come under one chapter....

 

[budda]

Ive been using the Helix LT for aggggges now. I do think what is telling is that there has been 2/3/4 versions maybe now AxeFXs since the 2010, the Helix has had one (noting different form factors of the rack, the LT etc) since 2015. The hardware is potentially up to the job for another 2/3 years as its the software inside that makes the difference . I am finding it interesting that no one is mentioning Plugins here. You can get Nueral DSPs to try and what not, but even the QC hasnt got the big name plug ins (Bea, Gojira etc) on it so that says a fair bit too. However, I agree with @will_shred they all kinda sound the same really, but customer service wise, Line 6 has been excellent from what ive seen. Id keep hold my LT even if I went back to tubes, as the reverbs, delays etc are all really cool and its got midi built, stereo panning etc etc. The big thing really which hasnt been mentioned is the IR verses stock cabs on both of these. Thats a whole different conversation.

What I would say is, I personally wouldnt want to gig anything like a Peavey Vypr, Line 6 spider etc. Ive heard countless tales of people using them at home, taking them to practices and when the drummer and bassist start, their guitar disappears into the mix. Id rather go with a small, cheaper head and 4 x 12 than do a digital modeller amp like that....

So you think the mk2 and turbo options of the axefx3 are a downside? And the only tells are subscript on the front panel, logo colour (if the user changes it) and boot screen lol. But yeah if this is viewed as negative Im curious as to why.

No one is mentioning plugins because you dont gig plugins.

 

[projectjetfire]

Not quite what I meant. I just wondered why they couldnt do what they need to do using the technology of the first release, if that makes sense? The Kemper/Helix has been the same since its launch? Is that because they are lazy or did they over specc the crap out of them both to ensure longevity? or are there good reason for the new releases? IDK, I jus wondered what they added to the 2 and Turbo that wasnt in the OG one. Its not a slight on them at all, but Im curious.

No, they dont.. however, in theory, why couldnt you? No reason really, esp if you're going to a PA. (noting that they are usually used for recording, but alot of the NDSP stuff has a stand alone application...

So you think the mk2 and turbo options of the axefx3 are a downside? And the only tells are subscript on the front panel, logo colour (if the user changes it) and boot screen lol. But yeah if this is viewed as negative Im curious as to why.

No one is mentioning plugins because you dont gig plugins.

 

[budda]

Not quite what I meant. I just wondered why they couldnt do what they need to do using the technology of the first release, if that makes sense? The Kemper/Helix has been the same since its launch? Is that because they are lazy or did they over specc the crap out of them both to ensure longevity? or are there good reason for the new releases? IDK, I jus wondered what they added to the 2 and Turbo that wasnt in the OG one. Its not a slight on them at all, but Im curious.

No, they dont.. however, in theory, why couldnt you? No reason really, esp if you're going to a PA. (noting that they are usually used for recording, but alot of the NDSP stuff has a stand alone application...

this still doesnt make sense.

Every version of the axefx3 runs the same firmware. There is no different firmware per 3/3turbo. They added more because more became available. The mk2 adds more memory for user cab slots. The turbo has those slots plus more cpu to run the new IR size that was created without hitting max cpu useage as quickly (short version). All 3 units run the same firmware and look the same from the outside.

Kemper being the same since launch is something that confuses most people because it hasnt made many changes or advancements (liquid profiling took what, a decade?).

Why would you want a company to rest on what was available 7 years ago? That makes no sense

 

[sleewell]

Arguing about modelers online is so hilarious.

I MUST VALIDATE MY PURCHASES BY CONVINCING SOME STRANGER ONLINE ITS BETTER THAN THE OTHER ONES!!!


It's 2024. All them are basically good enough. It really just comes down to how competent you are at dialing them in and what your listening to it through. Just find what works for your needs and play some music.

 

[projectjetfire]

this still doesnt make sense.

Every version of the axefx3 runs the same firmware. There is no different firmware per 3/3turbo. They added more because more became available. The mk2 adds more memory for user cab slots. The turbo has those slots plus more cpu to run the new IR size that was created without hitting max cpu useage as quickly (short version). All 3 units run the same firmware and look the same from the outside.

Kemper being the same since launch is something that confuses most people because it hasnt made many changes or advancements (liquid profiling took what, a decade?).

Why would you want a company to rest on what was available 7 years ago? That makes no sense

And yet Helix and Kemper users dont complain about limited DSP for their tones on thier 7 year old platorm... *shrug*

Its a fair shout but as guitarists, we are still using "t00bs" which is a very old technology as we all know. We are now at a point where all the tech is SO far advanced, its not impinging on the sound any more, its all over to the software writers etc. I did see the other day that as far as technology is concerned, we havent advanced as much as we did over the last 5/10/20 years. I can see how that is true, esp in mobile phones and small tech like that...

 

[budda]

And yet Helix and Kemper users dont complain about limited DSP for their tones on thier 7 year old platorm... *shrug*

Its a fair shout but as guitarists, we are still using "t00bs" which is a very old technology as we all know. We are now at a point where all the tech is SO far advanced, its not impinging on the sound any more, its all over to the software writers etc. I did see the other day that as far as technology is concerned, we havent advanced as much as we did over the last 5/10/20 years. I can see how that is true, esp in mobile phones and small tech like that...

This tells me you havent looked at the parameter options between a helix ans axefx…

 

[projectjetfire]

This tells me you havent looked at the parameter options between a helix ans axefx…

Educate me, whats that mean?

 

[budda]

Educate me, whats that mean?

Helix amp block has say 15 deep edit parameters. Axefx has 60-70.

 

[Kosthrash]

When the tubes glow, the jfets blow!

 

[projectjetfire]

Helix amp block has say 15 deep edit parameters. Axefx has 60-70.

What on earth would you do with that lot?

 

[budda]

What on earth would you do with that lot?

Well some people know amp design and tweak those like they would the real thing. Others tweak them to learn more about tone shaping and how amps work.

Other people avoid advanced options altogether.

None of those people are doing the wrong thing.

The thing is, the parameters are available.