Re-entrant tunings?

[NcLean]

Being a fan of ancient music, I've long been interested in using re-entrant tunings. I'm pretty happy with using them as un-fretted pedals, but everything else I've tried just f@%#s with my head. F'rinstance my first 6 imo-strat is currently tuned like a renaissance guitar as E4 B3 G3 D4 A3 (then I've got a spare to G2 or whatever). But... it's useless to me.

I mean, sure, I can play strummed chords and get a "12-string" sound. (sorry, that's 6-course 12 string, NOT like a Prometeus 12 string bass ). But I struggle to make my fingers coordinate in any useful way, when playing melodically or anything other than basic chord shapes.

Even ukuleles mess with my brain.

Has anyone had any success with re-entrant tunings? What makes them useful to you? What got you over the hurdle of learning the "re-entrantness"?

 

[Doug Craft]

Only on my 5-string banjo. The normal guitar tuning has been enough of a challenge! Best of luck, mate!

 

[ixlramp]

I think @Winspear is using a fifths-based re-entrant tuning, which is closely related to one i thought up for 8 string tapguitars.
It is an all-fifths tuning with the top 1 or 2 strings dropped an octave.
So harmonically it remains 'all-fifths'.
Normally when playing a triad or seventh chord in a fifths tuning, the third and/or seventh have to be played an octave up, on the fretboard this looks like:

seventh + octave
third + octave
fifth
root

So, dropping the top 1 or 2 strings an octave brings the third and/or seventh back down into the lower octave of the chord, for a piano-like chord voicing.
Also useful for solving the 'too much range' problem that can occur when using a fifths tuning on 7 or 8 (or sometimes even 6) strings.

The tapguitar tuning i thought of drops the top string an octave to make it possible to tune 8 strings in fifths on a 34" scale without the lowest string being excessively low (a Db0 at 17 Hz, gauge .180+). The highest practical tuning on 34" is D4, so with that as the highest tuned string:

Ab0 Eb1 Bb1 F2 C3 G3 D4 A3

This nicely preserves a region of 7 strings in ascending fifths, the primary intention of the tuning.

 

[Winspear]

^ Indeed, that's right!
5ths has the range of an 8 string on 6 strings, which I'm not opposed to but don't always want - and is impractical with more than 6 strings. I currently have several guitars tuned this way - the 7 string version is F1 C2 G2 D3 A3 E3 B3 (instead of what should be E4 B4) on top. Brings it back similar to regular baritone standard 7 range (F#1-B3.

I have a baritone acoustic 6 tuned similarly from A. A1 E2 B3 F#3 C#3 G#3

It definitely is a bit weird for a while if you're thinking hard about the voicings, but part of the nice thing of them simply being altered an octave is that you just use the same fingerings and enjoy the closer voiced chords without really thinking about it. The "12 string effect" is very cool. 2nd dissonances in the trebles are one of my favourite things in chords, so it's nice being able to get a bit of what I get jealous of piano players for.

I got the idea from Pat Metheny and Frank Gambale, who do similar:
Frank tunes his guitar UP to A and then the top two strings down. A2 D3 G3 C4 E3 A3
Pat tunes his guitar DOWN to A and then the middle two up. A1 D2 G3 C4 E3 A3
Results in the same thing but Pats basses an octave lower. You can see a handful of videos of these on Youtube searching Gambale Tuning, Baritone Half Nashville Tuning, Half Nashville Tuning etc. Listen to Pat Methenys album One Quiet Night which is a fantastic demonstration of this on acoustic guitar.

I did use the 4ths versions for a while a couple of years ago. I recently fell in love with the chord fingerings of 5ths tuning and had the same idea to apply it there. It is a bit less weird in 5ths because the top two strings are at least higher than the middle two, rather than the other way round, but overall the strings tunings are quite similar.
For comparison baritone 5ths: G1 D2 A2 E3 B3 F3#
Pat baritone half nashville: A1 D2 G3 C4 E3 A3
Pat altered to pure 4ths: A1 D2 G3 C4 F3 B3b

I haven't used anything but this reentrant 5ths for over 6 months. I feel like it's my new standard - everything just sounds so fresh and beautiful or dissonant if I want it to. Melody work and soloing is strange for sure, but very powerful with the ability to sustain 2nds and play 3rds in different ways to usual. I'm no shredder.
Depending on string types its also fun being able to call-and-response a melody two strings higher two frets lower with a subtly different tone, too.
Honestly the thing I miss most is the easy 3rds on the low two strings that are available in 4ths tunings - but that's a problem with drop tuning in general and my choice of 5ths, not reentrance.

 

[Winspear]

Enjoy the best sounding acoustic I've ever heard;

 

[Oscar Stern]

I think @Winspear is using a fifths-based re-entrant tuning, which is closely related to one i thought up for 8 string tapguitars.
It is an all-fifths tuning with the top 1 or 2 strings dropped an octave.
So harmonically it remains 'all-fifths'.
Normally when playing a triad or seventh chord in a fifths tuning, the third and/or seventh have to be played an octave up, on the fretboard this looks like:

seventh + octave
third + octave
fifth
root

So, dropping the top 1 or 2 strings an octave brings the third and/or seventh back down into the lower octave of the chord, for a piano-like chord voicing.
Also useful for solving the 'too much range' problem that can occur when using a fifths tuning on 7 or 8 (or sometimes even 6) strings.

The tapguitar tuning i thought of drops the top string an octave to make it possible to tune 8 strings in fifths on a 34" scale without the lowest string being excessively low (a Db0 at 17 Hz, gauge .266 made by Kalium). The highest practical tuning on 34" is D4, so with that as the highest tuned string:

Ab0 Eb1 Bb1 F2 C3 G3 D4 A3

This nicely preserves a region of 7 strings in ascending fifths, the primary intention of the tuning.

That has changed over the years. Dragonfly's 34 in Scale 8 String Tap guitars now have an Option of Liner 5ths Tuning (Db0, Ab0, Eb1, Bb1, F2, C3, G3, D4) thanks to the Kalium .266 Gauge Db0 String designed for the 34 in Scale.

 

[ixlramp]

Interesting, where did you see that information? The Dragonfly website only lists 25.5" scale instruments and strings up to .140, no mention of that tuning. Maybe i missed it. Mark has told me he is uninterested in providing 34" scale instruments.

Just to clarify ... i am aware of Kalium and Octave 4 Plus, and that Db0 is possible with a .180+.
I just consider Db0 undesirably low for most people. Also, the tapping technique really brings out the inharmonicity of extreme gauges.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Interesting, where did you see that information? The Dragonfly website only lists 25.5" scale instruments and strings up to .140, no mention of that tuning. Maybe i missed it. Mark has told me he is uninterested in providing 34" scale instruments.

Just to clarify ... i am aware of Kalium and Octave 4 Plus, and that Db0 is possible with a .180+.
I just consider Db0 undesirably low for most people. Also, the tapping technique really brings out the inharmonicity of extreme gauges.

I found that information from Kalium. A .266 String seems appropriate for Db0 cause it's meant to be tuned to that pitch. #StayHealthy

 

[ixlramp]

I see, i misunderstood, your post suggests Dragonfly have an official option of 8 strings in fifths.
So yes, generally, any 34" scale instrument can have a Db0 / C#0 string.

 

[Oscar Stern]

I think @Winspear is using a fifths-based re-entrant tuning, which is closely related to one i thought up for 8 string tapguitars.
It is an all-fifths tuning with the top 1 or 2 strings dropped an octave.
So harmonically it remains 'all-fifths'.
Normally when playing a triad or seventh chord in a fifths tuning, the third and/or seventh have to be played an octave up, on the fretboard this looks like:

seventh + octave
third + octave
fifth
root

So, dropping the top 1 or 2 strings an octave brings the third and/or seventh back down into the lower octave of the chord, for a piano-like chord voicing.
Also useful for solving the 'too much range' problem that can occur when using a fifths tuning on 7 or 8 (or sometimes even 6) strings.

The tapguitar tuning i thought of drops the top string an octave to make it possible to tune 8 strings in fifths on a 34" scale without the lowest string being excessively low (a Db0 at 17 Hz, gauge .180+). The highest practical tuning on 34" is D4, so with that as the highest tuned string:

Ab0 Eb1 Bb1 F2 C3 G3 D4 A3

This nicely preserves a region of 7 strings in ascending fifths, the primary intention of the tuning.

Octave4Plus cleverly made High A4 String for a 34 in scale bass thanks to their super strong core wire, & 5ths tuning does add some angelic shimmer to the high end. So what do you mean by "too much range" The Bass side or the Treble Side? Let me know.

 

[Oscar Stern]

^ Indeed, that's right!
5ths has the range of an 8 string on 6 strings, which I'm not opposed to but don't always want - and is impractical with more than 6 strings. I currently have several guitars tuned this way - the 7 string version is F1 C2 G2 D3 A3 E3 B3 (instead of what should be E4 B4) on top. Brings it back similar to regular baritone standard 7 range (F#1-B3.

I have a baritone acoustic 6 tuned similarly from A. A1 E2 B3 F#3 C#3 G#3

It definitely is a bit weird for a while if you're thinking hard about the voicings, but part of the nice thing of them simply being altered an octave is that you just use the same fingerings and enjoy the closer voiced chords without really thinking about it. The "12 string effect" is very cool. 2nd dissonances in the trebles are one of my favourite things in chords, so it's nice being able to get a bit of what I get jealous of piano players for.

I got the idea from Pat Metheny and Frank Gambale, who do similar:
Frank tunes his guitar UP to A and then the top two strings down. A2 D3 G3 C4 E3 A3
Pat tunes his guitar DOWN to A and then the middle two up. A1 D2 G3 C4 E3 A3
Results in the same thing but Pats basses an octave lower. You can see a handful of videos of these on Youtube searching Gambale Tuning, Baritone Half Nashville Tuning, Half Nashville Tuning etc. Listen to Pat Methenys album One Quiet Night which is a fantastic demonstration of this on acoustic guitar.

I did use the 4ths versions for a while a couple of years ago. I recently fell in love with the chord fingerings of 5ths tuning and had the same idea to apply it there. It is a bit less weird in 5ths because the top two strings are at least higher than the middle two, rather than the other way round, but overall the strings tunings are quite similar.
For comparison baritone 5ths: G1 D2 A2 E3 B3 F3#
Pat baritone half nashville: A1 D2 G3 C4 E3 A3
Pat altered to pure 4ths: A1 D2 G3 C4 F3 B3b

I haven't used anything but this reentrant 5ths for over 6 months. I feel like it's my new standard - everything just sounds so fresh and beautiful or dissonant if I want it to. Melody work and soloing is strange for sure, but very powerful with the ability to sustain 2nds and play 3rds in different ways to usual. I'm no shredder.
Depending on string types its also fun being able to call-and-response a melody two strings higher two frets lower with a subtly different tone, too.
Honestly the thing I miss most is the easy 3rds on the low two strings that are available in 4ths tunings - but that's a problem with drop tuning in general and my choice of 5ths, not reentrance.

Octave4plus makes a .006 B4 String so it can become F1, C2, G2, D3, A3, E4, B4 giving you more notes.

 

[Oscar Stern]

The Cretan Lauto is tuned GDAE like a Violin/Mandolin down 2 Octaves or CGDA like a Cello/Mandocello w/ only the 4th pair of Strings an Octave Higher because in Greek Music the 2nd & 4th pairs of Strings being tuned a step apart allows the Musician to play faster w/ precision, & if you were backing other instruments w/ it: the low end won't clash w/ other instruments unlike the Mandocello if you were just strumming it.

 

[Winspear]

Octave4plus makes a .006 B4 String so it can become F1, C2, G2, D3, A3, E4, B4 giving you more notes.

Indeed, I have experience up to A4 but both the high range and the special string treatment aren't areas I'm really interested in these days. I meant 'too much range' as in, for ideal tonal performance at both ends (at least on an instrument without a big fan). I don't want to go that high and am picky about my lows being nice long scale and very clear and tight, so full fifths is doomed to be tricky. Certainly, it can function ok though My most frequent use of it is actually E1-Eb4 on a 30" baritone. I've fallen very much in love with voicings in the re-entrant tuning and use that almost all the time instead.

 

[Gtan7]

I use reentrant on the e9 neck of pedal steel all the time but it's a very specific usage with 3 fingerpicks and thumbpick

https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/e9th/

If i'm going to use any new tuning besides just downtunign, I think I'm going to try Fripp's mostly 5ths tuning. And also Charlie Hunter's that has 3 bass tuned strings, and a perfect 5th up to the lowest of the treble guitar strings

 

[ixlramp]

Octave4Plus cleverly made High A4 String for a 34 in scale bass

Their highest tuning publicised plain steel bass strings can only do F#4 on 34"-37", not A4. Although i expect Garry might have managed A4 on 34" with some insanely thin experimental string which would probably not be practical or bearable for most people.

So what do you mean by "too much range"

Similar to what WInspear wrote, i mean "too much range" for the preferences of the guitar player for their particular instrument and its number of strings. Not everyone likes to use delicate, very expensive and low-signal-volume .006s, imported from another country, or extremely large gauges on the bottom that play lower than the lowest pitch of interest.

I have used an O4P .007 bass string but now will only use widely available .008s, i find .007s unpleasantly thin and too quiet when tapped. I am also not really interested in playing pitches below approximately G1.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Well O4+ has made improvements to their .007s by using a stronger core wire & coating it to make it sound louder. The lowest note on a Bass Guitar is E1 or in the case of a 5 String it's B0 or lower, & in which case they extend the scale to make those lower strings speak more clearly. This kinda gives me the idea of making this a Fanned Fret Multi-String Bass (14 or more) Strings tuned in 5ths, the fanned frets will balance out the tension & each string sounds great weather tapped or strummed.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Their highest tuning publicised plain steel bass strings can only do F#4 on 34"-37", not A4. Although i expect Garry might have managed A4 on 34" with some insanely thin experimental string which would probably not be practical or bearable for most people.

Similar to what WInspear wrote, i mean "too much range" for the preferences of the guitar player for their particular instrument and its number of strings. Not everyone likes to use delicate, very expensive and low-signal-volume .006s, imported from another country, or extremely large gauges on the bottom that play lower than the lowest pitch of interest.

I have used an O4P .007 bass string but now will only use widely available .008s, i find .007s unpleasantly thin and too quiet when tapped. I am also not really interested in playing pitches below approximately G1.

Octave4Plus makes a .0067 Gauge Bass String which tuned up to F#4 (maybe G4) on the Bass. Actually they made it just a tad bit thicker than .007 so it's more like a .0075 or something.

 

[ixlramp]

Actually they made it just a tad bit thicker than .007 so it's more like a .0075 or something.

How do you know this? Knowing how precise O4P is when stating gauges http://garrygoodman.com/Plain Steel Strings.htm i expect the product labelled .0067 is exactly that, otherwise it would be labelled .0075 or whatever.

 

[kisielk]

I'm interested in setting up an acoustic guitar with the Gambale reentrant tuning. Has anyone done it? Suggested string gauges?

 

[kisielk]

I'm interested in setting up an acoustic guitar with the Gambale reentrant tuning. Has anyone done it? Suggested string gauges?

Found this quote from Frank himself:

"I use a .010 gauge set for the bottom four strings, starting with the A string, and for the top two strings I use the D and G strings from a set of .009s. So gauge-wise, low-tohigh, it is .036, .026, .017, .013, .024, .016. It takes a moment to get used to, but within a few minutes, everyone I show it to loves it. The beauty of the tuning is you can play the same shapes that you're used to, whereas if you use an alternate tuning like open D or DADGAD, all of your shapes go away and you have to relearn everything. In my tuning if you play, say, a D chord shape, it's still a major triad."