Rough Song Demo-feedback please?

[CannibalKiller]

OK so I posted a clip of this song a while back before it was finished and got no response, so I'm posting the full version now that it's done.
This is a GP6 demo of a song I wrote with some help from my friend (a drummer), it's fairly long and the ending isn't tabbed out perfectly, but I think it's a decent effort considering it's the first REAL song I've ever fully written.
So, any feedback would be greatly appreciated, cheers

 

[CannibalKiller]

P.S the first part drags on, that was so there would be space for vocals as I tend to just write short sections of riffage.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

Hm. I like the mixed meter. Is this supposed to be that sonata form thing you were thinking about? It deviates quite a bit from that form. After the B section (second theme?), it meanders quite a bit. It's good for a first attempt at songwriting, but it reeaaally drags. It does that 'metal' thing, where instead of a cogent form, it starts going "riff-riff-riff-riff". There is a bit of recapitulation, but it's short-lived. The individual sections would work on their own in most songs, but for any extended form there need to be focal points, and this song lacks those focal points. As you were reading up on sonata form, you were probably exposed to the concept of exposition, development, and recapitulation. I know that you know the whole thing of this is in one key, then this is in another, then it's in a bunch of other keys, then it returns to the first key, and the other thing is in the first key, too. However, that's really just a result of the process. The abstraction of sonata form, and indeed all form (since I take it this piece is not intended to conform to that structure), is that we start with a couple ideas, then we're launched into an exploration of those ideas, and then we return with some newfound viewpoint or knowledge on those original thoughts. Take this song, which is nearly the same length as your track, for example:

Adagio - Seven Lands Of Sin


0:00 - Introduction. Take note of the direction of this section. It wanders around for a bit, then finds a direction and drives right into the A section. The transition at 1:30 really catches the listener's attention.

1:34 - A. This is just thematic material. Not terribly interesting, but it's in the "exposition" part of the song. It doesn't need to be too interesting, but if you placed it seven minutes in, it would be kind of crap.

2:03 - B. Once again, just a theme. Notice how it contrasts the A section, particularly in rhythm and the behavior of the melody. That alternation between characters creates flow. It's a natural process: contraction and rarefaction of soundwaves, high tides and low tides, day and night, sleeping and wakefulness. At 2:25, it starts building to a cadence, which allows us to anticipate that something is about to happen. This is another one of those attention-getters. Then at 2:32, we get the cadence and a little treat elided onto the end. That short guitar solo is a break from the very sectional writing we've heard thus far. Sometimes, it's the stuff between the sections that drives a work. I would analyze the section at 2:32 as a transition.

3:06 - C.

3:32 - B. The same as last time. Pay attention to the buildup of dissonance that approaches the cadence. 3:54 is old news. 4:01, though, is new. Another transition, but the harmonic content is different.

4:18 - The beginning of what would be the "development" section in sonata form. It's not really a development, but the feel is similar. This really comes from the bridge in song form. Regardless, let's call this "Phase 1" of whatever it is we're dealing with. Notice how the low strings recall the line from the introduction (it just goes to a different place at 4:40). With the piano coming in at 4:41, we have an elaboration of this section. That brings interest without expending too much compositional effort, and also keeps the form sounding pretty tight.

4:59 - A transition. Sort of an introduction to the next phase. Slow, dirge-like tempo.
5:15 - Continuing the same transition. Building tension.
5:29 - Continuing the same transition. More tension yet.
5:44 - Continuing the same transition still. There had better be payoff to this.

5:58 - Phase 2. Bam! Something faster and more exciting. The keyboard solo is interesting, the drums are picking up the rhythm, and the guitar is chugging along in a way that supports everything.

6:28 - Phase 3. Check out the contrast between the music here and the previous phase. There is a change of instrumentation (guitar solo), and the drums stop that double bass thing.

6:43 - Phase 4. A return of a more driven rhythm. Different melodic behavior.

7:13 - Phase 5. Rhythm becomes less busy again.

7:20 is a transition, a complete thinning out of the texture, that makes us anticipate something. It transitions into another transition at 7:26.

7:41 - Phase 6. Return of vocal stuff.

7:55 - Phase 7. More vocal stuff, different rhythm and character.

8:24 - Transition. Maaaaybe phase 8, but its function is to create tension and dissonance, particularly at the end. That sort of thing is usually important in the form.

8:42 - B! The recapitulation of the second theme. It's different from the exposition, though. There is a sense that we've experienced a journey. Not lazy writing. If this were strict sonata form or something, the A section would have happened somewhere around here. There is still the possibility that we're dealing with an inverted recap, though.

9:33 - Something new. A fresh take on an old idea.

10:05 - Transition.

10:20 - D. We don't get an A again, so no inverted recapitulation. Modern songwriting doesn't like A sections for some reason.

11:04 - Coda. Wraps the song up.

---------------

Okay, let's extract something from this. The song starts out with some vanilla elements, intersperses a few flashy moments to create flow, then has a long exploration of very interesting situations involving shows of musicianship and plays on rhythm and texture. The middle is perhaps the most important part, because this is where people will get lost, so you need to make this extra interesting. The "development", or bridge, or whatever, builds up to a cadence (this is really important) and we are finally taken back to the vanilla stuff from the beginning, but the composer had the sense not to make it boring and straightforward. By tacking new material on to familiar material, some interest is generated without sacrificing too much cohesion.

I personally like my songs to be more formally tight, but this isn't a bad example. Just stick with the formula of familiar-different-familiar, and you can't go wrong.

 

[CannibalKiller]

Hm. I like the mixed meter. Is this supposed to be that sonata form thing you were thinking about? It deviates quite a bit from that form. After the B section (second theme?), it meanders quite a bit. It's good for a first attempt at songwriting, but it reeaaally drags. It does that 'metal' thing, where instead of a cogent form, it starts going "riff-riff-riff-riff". There is a bit of recapitulation, but it's short-lived. The individual sections would work on their own in most songs, but for any extended form there need to be focal points, and this song lacks those focal points. As you were reading up on sonata form, you were probably exposed to the concept of exposition, development, and recapitulation. I know that you know the whole thing of this is in one key, then this is in another, then it's in a bunch of other keys, then it returns to the first key, and the other thing is in the first key, too. However, that's really just a result of the process. The abstraction of sonata form, and indeed all form (since I take it this piece is not intended to conform to that structure), is that we start with a couple ideas, then we're launched into an exploration of those ideas, and then we return with some newfound viewpoint or knowledge on those original thoughts. Take this song, which is nearly the same length as your track, for example:

Adagio - Seven Lands Of Sin


0:00 - Introduction. Take note of the direction of this section. It wanders around for a bit, then finds a direction and drives right into the A section. The transition at 1:30 really catches the listener's attention.

1:34 - A. This is just thematic material. Not terribly interesting, but it's in the "exposition" part of the song. It doesn't need to be too interesting, but if you placed it seven minutes in, it would be kind of crap.

2:03 - B. Once again, just a theme. Notice how it contrasts the A section, particularly in rhythm and the behavior of the melody. That alternation between characters creates flow. It's a natural process: contraction and rarefaction of soundwaves, high tides and low tides, day and night, sleeping and wakefulness. At 2:25, it starts building to a cadence, which allows us to anticipate that something is about to happen. This is another one of those attention-getters. Then at 2:32, we get the cadence and a little treat elided onto the end. That short guitar solo is a break from the very sectional writing we've heard thus far. Sometimes, it's the stuff between the sections that drives a work. I would analyze the section at 2:32 as a transition.

3:06 - C.

3:32 - B. The same as last time. Pay attention to the buildup of dissonance that approaches the cadence. 3:54 is old news. 4:01, though, is new. Another transition, but the harmonic content is different.

4:18 - The beginning of what would be the "development" section in sonata form. It's not really a development, but the feel is similar. This really comes from the bridge in song form. Regardless, let's call this "Phase 1" of whatever it is we're dealing with. Notice how the low strings recall the line from the introduction (it just goes to a different place at 4:40). With the piano coming in at 4:41, we have an elaboration of this section. That brings interest without expending too much compositional effort, and also keeps the form sounding pretty tight.

4:59 - A transition. Sort of an introduction to the next phase. Slow, dirge-like tempo.
5:15 - Continuing the same transition. Building tension.
5:29 - Continuing the same transition. More tension yet.
5:44 - Continuing the same transition still. There had better be payoff to this.

5:58 - Phase 2. Bam! Something faster and more exciting. The keyboard solo is interesting, the drums are picking up the rhythm, and the guitar is chugging along in a way that supports everything.

6:28 - Phase 3. Check out the contrast between the music here and the previous phase. There is a change of instrumentation (guitar solo), and the drums stop that double bass thing.

6:43 - Phase 4. A return of a more driven rhythm. Different melodic behavior.

7:13 - Phase 5. Rhythm becomes less busy again.

7:20 is a transition, a complete thinning out of the texture, that makes us anticipate something. It transitions into another transition at 7:26.

7:41 - Phase 6. Return of vocal stuff.

7:55 - Phase 7. More vocal stuff, different rhythm and character.

8:24 - Transition. Maaaaybe phase 8, but its function is to create tension and dissonance, particularly at the end. That sort of thing is usually important in the form.

8:42 - B! The recapitulation of the second theme. It's different from the exposition, though. There is a sense that we've experienced a journey. Not lazy writing. If this were strict sonata form or something, the A section would have happened somewhere around here. There is still the possibility that we're dealing with an inverted recap, though.

9:33 - Something new. A fresh take on an old idea.

10:05 - Transition.

10:20 - D. We don't get an A again, so no inverted recapitulation. Modern songwriting doesn't like A sections for some reason.

11:04 - Coda. Wraps the song up.

---------------

Okay, let's extract something from this. The song starts out with some vanilla elements, intersperses a few flashy moments to create flow, then has a long exploration of very interesting situations involving shows of musicianship and plays on rhythm and texture. The middle is perhaps the most important part, because this is where people will get lost, so you need to make this extra interesting. The "development", or bridge, or whatever, builds up to a cadence (this is really important) and we are finally taken back to the vanilla stuff from the beginning, but the composer had the sense not to make it boring and straightforward. By tacking new material on to familiar material, some interest is generated without sacrificing too much cohesion.

I personally like my songs to be more formally tight, but this isn't a bad example. Just stick with the formula of familiar-different-familiar, and you can't go wrong.

this is actually a different song to the sonata form one

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

I gathered that when I noticed that your song wasn't in sonata form. Read my post.

The abstraction of sonata form, and indeed all form (since I take it this piece is not intended to conform to that structure), is that we start with a couple ideas, then we're launched into an exploration of those ideas, and then we return with some newfound viewpoint or knowledge on those original thoughts.

 

[Hyacinth]

He just gave you a full breakdown of a song's structure which obviously took more than a small amount of effort.

You should probably say thanks or something.