shocking: questions about alt tuning, (multi)scale length ... but this thread will be unique I promise! (tritone tuning, E1-E6 range, GAS)

[_RH_]

Ok don't hate me, I know the thread title sounds generic ... but I have a variation on the normal questions: I think the TLDR version is "what manufacturers offer longer multiscale bass lengths" So far I've seen strandberg at 26.25", a few at 27" (Agile, Kiesel, Legator, Goc), and Ormsby at 27.8".

details: after seeing videos about "perfect fourths" tuning, I've really enjoyed playing with tritone tuning (aka diminished-fifths aka augmented-fourths). To me the benefits are:
1. if it's good enough for Shawn Lane and Ron Jarzombek, it's good enough for me
2. same interval between each string (I've never really known theory, so this is a way to simplify patterns / theory / etc)
3. octaves vertical on alternating strings (similar to drop tuning power chord shape)
4. playing on 7 string can result in: E1, A#1, E2, A#2, E3, A#3, E4. So you have range of E1-E6: no need to ever shift tunings / pitch shift for covers. Using a partial capo can be equivalent of common "drop" tunings.
5. it's really fun to completely relearn everything you've memorized over 20ish years of playing. Ok this one may not be a benefit.

So I've been messing with this tuning on my Ibanez S5527 and really enjoying it, but E1 on the 25.5" scale seems to result in issues like abnormal / muddy tone (using .084 gauge) and pitch instability with heavy picking. I'm not really a tone snob, but the string is noticeably different than the others ... and it's a big ole boy! I feel like it's giving more string noise with tapping too. The floating bridge is a little more finicky to setup, and then when I capo it it seems to waver too. It also has the intonation adjustment under the strings, so it's not super quick to change. While I love that guitar, I'm not sure it's ideal for this setup.

Long ago I tried a longer scale (Agile Intrepid with 8 strings: 28.6") and felt like it was "too much" for my small-ish hands. A lot of what I love playing is in the higher frets, so I'm not really thrilled about the idea of baritone scale. I've never owned (or even tried!) a multiscale, but in my head this seems more appealing. (also a question: if local stores don't have any multiscales in stock, will any order one in without me buying it? I don't really want to buy a >$1,000 guitar without trying such an important attribute ahead of time)

Using string tension calculators, it looks like E1 for ...
1. 25.5" at .084 has ~15.5lb
2. 26.25" at .084 has ~16.4lb
3. 27" at .074 has ~13lb
4. 27.8" at .074 has ~13.8lb

so even the extra ~2" scale length would only allow a string ~10% smaller. I guess I'm surprised that this doesn't result in a bigger difference ... am I really going to notice a big change between .084 and .074 gauges? Am I thinking about this right? Anyone else run E1 on their seven string? I'm thinking headless would be fun because (1) I've never had one, (2) weight / length savings, and (3) it's been a long time since I've had GAS and maybe it's just time. This already feels like a novel so I'll stop here and get any input you have. Thanks!

 

[nickgray]

am I really going to notice a big change between .084 and .074 gauges?

Yes, it'll be absolutely massive. It'll also allow for better intonation.

In a nutshell, wound strings are mainly defined by their plain cores, not the wrapping. The thicker the string - the thicker the core. Even tried really thick plains, like a 0.022? It sounds like church bells ringing in someone's asshole. Wrapping a wire around it does not remove the problem.

I would also encourage you to try lower tension strings in general as well as building a custom set with a fairly even tension. All the commonly used sets are pretty wonky in terms of tension, the lowest strings especially. To put it into two words, when your 4th, 5th strings are taut, 6th is a bit slacker, and 7th is real slack, it can throw you off quite a bit, depending on the tension mismatch and on how you personally react to it. One solution, which I think most people go for, is to try to beef up the lower strings. The problem, as you saw for yourself, is that beyond a certain thickness strings start to sound like shit. The other solution is to slacken the higher strings.

What you can do to compensate for the lower tension, if you can't get used to it (though you really should try to, at least), is to raise the action a bit. The guitar should still feel fairly easy to play because high tension + low action is kind of sort of the same in terms of effort to push the string against a fret as low tension + high action. Obviously, it depends on the actual setup, but, you know, like 1mm-1.4mm with higher tension strings can feel similar to 1.3-1.7 mm lower tension strings, just throwing a quick example.

 

[Bodes]

... sounds like church bells ringing in someone's asshole.

Ok, turn off your devices. This quote has won the internet today.

 

[Robslalaina]

Yes, it'll be absolutely massive. It'll also allow for better intonation.

I agree.

Even tried really thick plains, like a 0.022? It sounds like church bells ringing in someone's asshole.

This might end up as my signature...

The problem, as you saw for yourself, is that beyond a certain thickness strings start to sound like shit.

I agree.

What you can do to compensate for the lower tension, if you can't get used to it (though you really should try to, at least)

100%. Much better in the long run than to end up needing a .74 when tuning your 27" scale to A1... Where do you even go from there, say when you move to E1/8 strings?

Anyway, thanks nickgray for redefining what all posts should be like

 

[_RH_]

Thanks. Regarding the church bells: based on some descriptions music reviewers use nowadays, I'm not 100% positive if you're describing a positive or negative thing ... I don't know what genres you're into but thanks for the thoughts, I guess I was just surprised there wasn't a bigger difference from a ~2" scale change. Every inch of scale is only ~1lb string tension difference?!

Lower tension is something for me to practice more; I don't know honestly that I have tangible results (i.e. oh I hated <14 lb etc) but I did try .074 for E1 at 25.5" - calculator yields ~12lb and that felt pretty difficult to maintain pitch with both hands. A Googling led to an interview with Jason Richardson where he seems to say he goes .058 for F#1 at 25.5" - calculator yields ~9lb. Wow! I don't know that I can get to that point - the wavering must be so sensitive! What tension do you aim for? For the tuning, I did Frankenstein string sets together to aim for ~15-18lb on each string.

Sounds like I'll also experiment with lighter picks and higher action. But by this same logic, perhaps my "need" for longer scale is exaggerated: .074 for E1 with ~2" longer scale is only ~2lb tighter.

 

[Ubereem]

I think this highlights an issue with using raw numbers to diagnose an issue that is multivalent. You're also pointing out at very, very common issue with very low tunings at conventional guitar scale lengths. An E1 at 25.5" is pretty absurd to begin with and I'm not sure how you'll remedy sound issues without a massive string or longer scale length.

Just to give an example: on a standard tuned-4 string bass (EADG), the E1 sits at a 34"(!) scale length.

You'll likely just have to get used to more tension or a bigger scale length. No way around it, really.

Though, on extended range, multiscales shouldn't be too difficult to play.

 

[_RH_]

Alright I got the chance to noodle on a few different scale lengths for 10-15 min recently: straight 27", 25.5"-27", 25.5"-27.8" (with 29 frets!). Apart from the Orsmby Goliath, are there production headless 7 strings with greater than 27" scales on bass side?

 

[_RH_]

Well I purchased an Ormsby! It's fun to try to learn something new, but I'm scratching my head on the intonation! The fretted notes on multiple strings are flat in ballpark of 10 cents, even with saddles as close to neck as possible. On treble side, 12th fret is about 12.75" from nut, so doesn't saddle need to be roughly twice that (25.5")?


Considering the bridge is well further away, I don't see how this is going to work!

Comparing the tone/feel to 25.5", I think the tone is clearer down low; made a quick recording of my 25.5" vs this one as test. You may find some of the fretboard patterns for this tuning interesting:

 

[bostjan]

I know I'm a day late and a dollar short, but some of the old Agile multiscale guitars were 30" on the low side. As a fan of long scale guitars and multiscale, I'd love to see more such options, but I guess they are simply unpopular.

 

[ElRay]

I have saved searches for:

• 92730
• 82730
• 72730
• 62730

on Reverb. I haven't been able to figure out what to do with a 102730, otherwise that would be on the list too.

{Un}Fortunately, funds & availability have not been in sync.

 

[_RH_]

I owned an Agile 828 a few years back and thought it was a good instrument. As @bostjan woukd say, i was a fan. At that point I'd only spent much time on 6x25.5" so it did feel like a beast. If memory serves the neck shape was pretty healthy too- maybe not ideal for my smallish hands. Now that I've spent a lot more time on 7x25.5" I wonder if it was the 8 strings or 28.6" scale that I found noticeably straining.

Does anyone have thoughts on my previous post about the scale length on treble side? Will this thing ever be able to intonate? (I don't need it to be absolutely perfect, but I could certainly hear 10 cents off)

 

[bostjan]

IMO, 10 cents sharp is unacceptable.

The saddle is all the way forward already? In the photo, it doesn't appear to be all the way up. If the screw is out of length, but there's still room under the saddle to contact the bridge plate, maybe you just need a longer intonation adjustment screw.

If not... Only way to try to fix it without a repair is to try a different string.

Did you say this is the case with multiple strings? Maybe see if you can get in touch with Perry and see if he knows who can fix it.

 

[_RH_]

Well after playing on the Ormsby for a few weeks I decided to return it. So I'm back on the horse, looking for a new guitar, and starting to feel like there are enough variables that I'm struggling to prioritize. I'm hoping someone who plays something similar can give insight.

"musts": 7 string, at least 27" bass scale
"wants": Evertune, Stainless frets, HH pickups, headless may be cool too (I'd probably prioritize lower than Evertune)
"avoiding": Indonesian, very slanted frets 19-24, spending over $1,500 (budget not necessarily a problem, just not sure my playing ability warrants this kind of money ha ... feels like I should be able to get a good guitar for $1,500)

With this tuning (E1, A#1, E2, A#2, E3, A#3, E4) octaves are on alternating strings at the same fret, so I end up tapping say the 21st fret on highest and 3rd highest string - an extreme fan feels strange for this. I also find myself playing a lot in the 12th fret neighborhood, so I wonder just how uncomfortable a long (30") scale would really be. Aesthetics aren't that important; I've always liked superstrats with wood grain showing, but the other parameters are more important.

So what's on my radar now? I would prefer to buy from Guitar Center due to their warranty / return policy. Even if other places have nice return policies, it's nice to avoid the hassles of shipping / worrying about something going wrong with that. Here are models catching my eye now:
-$1,450 Legator Ninja (Evertune, Fishman Fluence, Stainless frets...but the single piece maple neck worries me)
-$1,450 ESP LTD SN-1007 (...Indonesian)
-$1,200 ESP LTD H3-1007 (...not wild about TOM (lack of individual action) and Indonesian)
-$1,200 Ibanez RGD71ALMS (Fishman Fluence, 12th fret parallel ... but Indonesian)
the $1,100 ESP LTD M-7HT is non-starter (lack of neck pickup)
-$1,000 Ibanez RGIXL7 (Indonesian)
-$950 Schecter Sunset Triad or Extreme

some interesting used ones:
-$1,800 Kiesel Vader VM7 (probably too much of fret slant up toward fret 24, but cool design!)
-$600 Agile Septor
-$350 Agile Septor

Any thoughts on these, or other guitars, would be welcome! Given the tuning and desire to play metal riffs/leads what would you lean toward? Thanks!

 

[_RH_]

Well, the plot thickens!

I definitely feel a difference in string spacing, here's how the Jackson and Ibanez compare at nut, 12th fret, and bridge.

 

[_RH_]

https://www.reddit.com/r/7String/s/8tDTLjlS0c

Still finding this tuning really interesting, and thought someone else may get some value out of it

 

[dhgrind]

I’ve got the m7ht - neck pickups are overrated.

I’m considering the rgd71alms as I really want a multiscale guitar to go with my recently acquired and now second multiscale bass.

I’d steer clear of Kiesel - idc what anyone says their customer support is hot garbage (personal experience).

I’d personally go with Agile if you just want to “try it out” and either Ibanez or LTD if you’re serious.

Also Indonesian guitars are pretty decent now a days - sure you can get some bad ones but I’ve gotten shitty US made guitars (looking at you Kiesel)

Well after playing on the Ormsby for a few weeks I decided to return it. So I'm back on the horse, looking for a new guitar, and starting to feel like there are enough variables that I'm struggling to prioritize. I'm hoping someone who plays something similar can give insight.

"musts": 7 string, at least 27" bass scale
"wants": Evertune, Stainless frets, HH pickups, headless may be cool too (I'd probably prioritize lower than Evertune)
"avoiding": Indonesian, very slanted frets 19-24, spending over $1,500 (budget not necessarily a problem, just not sure my playing ability warrants this kind of money ha ... feels like I should be able to get a good guitar for $1,500)

With this tuning (E1, A#1, E2, A#2, E3, A#3, E4) octaves are on alternating strings at the same fret, so I end up tapping say the 21st fret on highest and 3rd highest string - an extreme fan feels strange for this. I also find myself playing a lot in the 12th fret neighborhood, so I wonder just how uncomfortable a long (30") scale would really be. Aesthetics aren't that important; I've always liked superstrats with wood grain showing, but the other parameters are more important.

So what's on my radar now? I would prefer to buy from Guitar Center due to their warranty / return policy. Even if other places have nice return policies, it's nice to avoid the hassles of shipping / worrying about something going wrong with that. Here are models catching my eye now:
-$1,450 Legator Ninja (Evertune, Fishman Fluence, Stainless frets...but the single piece maple neck worries me)
-$1,450 ESP LTD SN-1007 (...Indonesian)
-$1,200 ESP LTD H3-1007 (...not wild about TOM (lack of individual action) and Indonesian)
-$1,200 Ibanez RGD71ALMS (Fishman Fluence, 12th fret parallel ... but Indonesian)
the $1,100 ESP LTD M-7HT is non-starter (lack of neck pickup)
-$1,000 Ibanez RGIXL7 (Indonesian)
-$950 Schecter Sunset Triad or Extreme

some interesting used ones:
-$1,800 Kiesel Vader VM7 (probably too much of fret slant up toward fret 24, but cool design!)
-$600 Agile Septor
-$350 Agile Septor

Any thoughts on these, or other guitars, would be welcome! Given the tuning and desire to play metal riffs/leads what would you lean toward? Thanks!